Turkey in the EU: Lets get the facts straight...

[hellenes]

During the last 40 years the Turkish state is trying to join the European Union.
The main position on the matter of failiure of the Turkish government is the Greek obstacle and the whole "Muslim country in a Christian Europe" debate...
However I wonder how on earth a Democratic institution as the EU is letting itself to debate with a Military JUNTA regime of Kemalist generals?

Hellenes

[lancelot]

I dont care about religion as long as people are not using it to justify bombings and what not...

And I think facts are very hard to come by, hence all the confusion and controversy.

Im concerned about what turkey can offer the EU (excpet cheap labour which we have enough of already) compared to what it expects.

I fear us 'proping' up economically weaker nations to our detriment and lets face it, turkey is european by like...2% of its landmass to say nothing of turkish culture being hardly european...

If Turkey is european, you might as well let algeria and syria in...

[Byzantine Prince]

Turkey needs to first ban that foundamentalist religion. Then let them join, and have some fun with us.

[bmolsson]

Turkey would be an asset for EU as well as it would make a great platform for reforms within islam and the communication between Europe and the middle east.

[hellenes]

Turkey needs to first ban that foundamentalist religion. Then let them join, and have some fun with us.

That religion is already banned...
Ive visited Turkey many times and the Islamic fondametalism is supressed to a great degree...
Islamists are kept low in the army ranks and the public display of fondametalist islam is being dealt with...
The main objection that I have with Turkeys entry is in two points:
Just because they have conquered a small percentage of European soil that doesnt make them European.
And the greatest obstacle to Turkeys entry is the FASIST MILITARY JUNTA REGIME of Kemalist generals.

Hellenes

[Spetulhu]

Orhan Pamuk, anyone? This writer risks up to three years prison time for "insulting Turkey's national identity" over remarks about the mass killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.

No deal on Turkey as long as things like this go on.

[hellenes]

Orhan Pamuk, anyone? This writer risks up to three years prison time for "insulting Turkey's national identity" over remarks about the mass killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.

No deal on Turkey as long as things like this go on.

But you should have seen Washington's toyboy (UK Straw) greeting Giul (the Turkish foreign affairs minister) at the EU summit...
The US is pushing Turkey and its Dictators Generals in the EU using the 51st state UK as the 5th column inside the EU...

Hellenes

[lars573]

During the last 40 years the Turkish state is trying to join the European Union.
The main position on the matter of failiure of the Turkish government is the Greek obstacle and the whole "Muslim country in a Christian Europe" debate...
However I wonder how on earth a Democratic institution as the EU is letting itself to debate with a Military JUNTA regime of Kemalist generals?

Hellenes

Military JUNTA! I don't whether to laugh cry or shoot you in the face that's sooooo stupid. Turkey is about the only Muslim nation that is even mostly democratic (Malaysia and Indonesia come close). I don't think you'll find that any Turkish politician holds an active military commission, which is needed for it to be a military junta BTW. Also Turkey has been making it's laws and government more acceptable to Europeans as of late.

[hellenes]

Military JUNTA! I don't whether to laugh cry or shoot you in the face that's sooooo stupid. Turkey is about the only Muslim nation that is even mostly democratic (Malaysia and Indonesia come close). I don't think you'll find that any Turkish politician holds an active military commission, which is needed for it to be a military junta BTW. Also Turkey has been making it's laws and government more acceptable to Europeans as of late.

Im sorry dear Lars but stating that Turkey hasnt imprisoned journalists supressing liberal groups and hasnt a NATIONALISTIC far right Military Kemalist regime is beyond the scope of the wildest fantasy...
Democracy in Turkey is like rain in Sahara, the ICONOLATRIC CULT of Mustafa Kemal is comparable only to Stalin's and Hitler's personal cults, hes picture is everywere and the nationalistic propaganda is dripping through the bones...
Its very sad to see the effectivness of the succesful Turkish foreign policy...

Hellenes

[Ser Clegane]

hellenes, it has become pretty clear over the past months that you have an axe to grind with Turkey.
As you make some pretty bold statements here, I would suggest that you come up with some facts to support these statements - otherwise I do not see any point in letting this discussion continue as - so far - it rather has the characteristics of a rant that will most likely further spiral down into a flame war

[hellenes]

hellenes, it has become pretty clear over the past months that you have an axe to grind with Turkey.
As you make some pretty bold statements here, I would suggest that you come up with some facts to support these statements - otherwise I do not see any point in letting this discussion continue as - so far - it rather has the characteristics of a rant that will most likely further spiral down into a flame war

Its sad to have to prove that one isnt an elephant, but anyway ill rephrase:
I have NO problem with Turkish people.
As I said before Ive been in Turkey and Ive seen the CULT of Mustafa Kemal and the rampage nationalism that would be outrageous in any modern European country.
A good book
http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/St...x?StoryId=1982
Its clear that the U.S.A. want Turkey in the EU and are working to that goal toghether with their puppets in UK...
The day that Turkey gets rid of the white cells and the supression of the press toghether with the Iconolatric cult that day it will be in compliance with the foundamental principles of the United Europe.

Hellenes

[bmolsson]

The cult you are describing can more or less be found anywhere in the world. Most leaders are in love of their own image and being a democracy is not something that hampers that.....

[hellenes]

The cult you are describing can more or less be found anywhere in the world. Most leaders are in love of their own image and being a democracy is not something that hampers that.....

If a state has a "leader" at the pedestale of deity that state lacks democracy...
Only Totalitarian regimes had Icon cults to the brainwashing extent, for myself I dont know ANY country member of EU that has a cult of any person like the cult of Mustafa Kemal in Turkey...

hellenes

[Ser Clegane]

Its sad to have to prove that one isnt an elephant, but anyway ill rephrase:
I have NO problem with Turkish people.
As I said before Ive been in Turkey and Ive seen the CULT of Mustafa Kemal and the rampage nationalism that would be outrageous in any modern European country.
A good book
http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/St...x?StoryId=1982

Actually you rephrasing changed your original statements quite a bit.

I certainly see a difference between saying that Turkey is a nationalistic country with a person-cut and saying that Turkey is goverened by a fascist military junta - so what is it now?

[hellenes]

Actually you rephrasing changed your original statements quite a bit.

I certainly see a difference between saying that Turkey is a nationalistic country with a person-cut and saying that Turkey is goverened by a fascist military junta - so what is it now?

As you can see from the link the military isnt that far from dictatorship, a subtle and soft one though...
I honestly admire the foreign political power of Turkey on diplomatic level, they have achieved so much and most important the support from USA and Israel ...
As I see it now there is a decent level of hypocricy concerning democracy in Turkey many stakes on diplomatic gambling...

Hellenes

[lars573]

Im sorry dear Lars but stating that Turkey hasnt imprisoned journalists supressing liberal groups and hasnt a NATIONALISTIC far right Military Kemalist regime is beyond the scope of the wildest fantasy...
Democracy in Turkey is like rain in Sahara, the ICONOLATRIC CULT of Mustafa Kemal is comparable only to Stalin's and Hitler's personal cults, hes picture is everywere and the nationalistic propaganda is dripping through the bones...
Its very sad to see the effectivness of the succesful Turkish foreign policy...

Hellenes

The person who founds any nation is given a certain amount of a personality cult by default. Look at George Washington in the US, Sir John A. MacDonald in my own nation, or Napoleon I in France. They are all given a certain reverance and hero whorship. Mustafa Kemal is the same. Their flaws and short comings are glossed over and their shinning acheavements is all you'll hear about. I also I never said that the Turkish government wasn't authoritarian (it is, but their nice about it). I don't dispute that the army has a good deal of influence (but not control) over the civilian leaders. Democracy in any nation is about convincing the electorate into voting for your party. The system in Turkey is simple an old version of democracy. Like it was in the west about oh 100 years ago.

[Kralizec]

I voted no. Not because of their human rights situation (though that's not good enough either right now) but because I don't want to accept a new member state who:

- denies the genocide of 1 million Armenians
- refuses to this very day to acknowledge one of our member states, Cyprus

[Geoffrey S]

Islam isn't an issue in this case, unlike many make it out to be; the human-rights, Armenian genocide and Cyprus issues however are more than enough, let alone that the Turkish government has always been reluctant when it comes to acknowledging and tackling said problems. Shouldn't try to force a square peg into a round hole, should we?

[BDC]

Islam isn't an issue in this case, unlike many make it out to be; the human-rights, Armenian genocide and Cyprus issues however are more than enough, let alone that the Turkish government has always been reluctant when it comes to acknowledging and tackling said problems. Shouldn't try to force a square peg into a round hole, should we?

No, but we could grind it down a bit then it would fit...

[Geoffrey S]

No, but we could grind it down a bit then it would fit...

Agreed. But it should not be rushed, Turkey must conform to strict standards before it's possible, and the EU must certainly not be pressured into action by demands from Turkey; none of the above seems to be the case, particularly the matter of strict standards. And Turkey doesn't seem to be taking too well to the grinding, methinks.

[LeftEyeNine]

hellenes, we admire, we love, we follow the way of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk who was able to organize a hopeless nation to fight a war out of nothing, win it and force the invaders accept the terms held straight for Turkish people's existence that is the borders of the land: "Misak-i Milli".

As a Greek, you may find it hard to accept the defeat although the strong British support to the Greek troops that failed the invasion in '20s. If you were the winners, I'd not want to accept it probably. But you have no right to blame my leader, cover our indisputable victory with mud due to your hatred rooted in historical facts. That is too much.

Turkey has never and ever been a military junta regime. Our very proud and victorius army has a protective and deterrent effect that keeps us off Islamic fanatism, Kurdish terror that took 30.000 Turks' lives.

It is pathetic to claim that you don't have any problems with Turkish people. I have faced this trick more than once in any forums including The Org. SOAD -the hardcore band- says that "We don't have any problems with Turkish people, we have problems with Turkish government". Are the governers elected by Neptunians ? We choose them. They represent Turkish people. Be yourself, at least, and yell out that "I hate Turkey". I do not hate Greece actually -I am honest, I did not have any problems and hateful dialogues with any Greeks until I met some here in this forum. Anatolia is a Turkish reign and ever will it be. Dislike the fact but drop your Loki mask. There is no need to show off any hatred so publicly. This is not the place - at least I've learned it to be so.

When it comes to Turkey into EU stuff - again and again :

More than half of Turkish population don't want to join EU. I'm one of them. It's the government managed by a single political party -AKP- that is trying to create a livelong credit to maintain their political life. Turkish nation nearly knows nothing about even what will be benefiting in case we are accepted. The general answer when asked about is that : "Erm..Well..More money?"

I'm a happy Turkish that has roots through his Middle Asian heritage. I'm not a European culturally. We are civilized people but we feel distinct from European mentality. We perceive, evaluate and react different.

Learn this. I do not want EU. And I'm getting more and more rightful about my decision because of the fact that some Europeans are even more hostile that we ever faced. I am happy being that way. I wish negotiations stop someday -like more than a half of this nation wishes it the way to be.

Treat like a sensitive and understanding European -as I've got used to them to behave that way- and stop bashing Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, one of the greatest statesman, commander and reformist of the 20th century.. Please..

P.S. The vehicle that was carrying Orhan Pamuk was attacked after his trial. He did not take any damage fortunately. Prime minister Erdogan publicly stated his anger about the lack of security with Pamuk's vehicle. The trial is postponed for now by the ministry of Justice. The general view of the professors and known figures is all about the instant cancellation of the trial.

P.S.S. I read yesterday that several historians in France publicly announced about their thoughts on cancellation the law about acceptance Armenian Genocide, including the punishment on the ones denying the Holocaust and several other laws. The main point they suggest is that these subjects are the historians' job, not the government. I was amazed actually.

P.S.S.S. "Tell a lie enough times, and it becomes truth."
~Joseph Goebbels

[Geoffrey S]

More than half of Turkish population don't want to join EU. I'm one of them. It's the government managed by a single political party -AKP- that is trying to create a livelong credit to maintain their political life. Turkish nation nearly knows nothing about even what will be benefiting in case we are accepted. The general answer when asked about is that : "Erm..Well..More money?"

I'm a happy Turkish that has roots through his Middle Asian heritage. I'm not a European culturally. We are civilized people but we feel distinct from European mentality. We perceive, evaluate and react different.

I agree. Hence, the square peg in round hole comment. It's something we Europeans tend to forget, that the feeling of Turkey not belonging in the EU is not limited to the EU.

[Slyspy]

I sometimes think that the only reason for having Turkey in the EU is so that Europe can have a "pet" Muslim country. I agree with LeftEyeNine, Turkey is not a European country. Culturally, religiously and politically the two differ greatly. I also agree with the others who stated various problems with accepting a new member with unacknowledged blood on its hands and which does not accept the existence of a country that is already a member state.

[hellenes]

hellenes, we admire, we love, we follow the way of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk who was able to organize a hopeless nation to fight a war out of nothing, win it and force the invaders accept the terms held straight for Turkish people's existence that is the borders of the land: "Misak-i Milli".

As a Greek, you may find it hard to accept the defeat although the strong British support to the Greek troops that failed the invasion in '20s. If you were the winners, I'd not want to accept it probably. But you have no right to blame my leader, cover our indisputable victory with mud due to your hatred rooted in historical facts. That is too much.

Turkey has never and ever been a military junta regime. Our very proud and victorius army has a protective and deterrent effect that keeps us off Islamic fanatism, Kurdish terror that took 30.000 Turks' lives.

It is pathetic to claim that you don't have any problems with Turkish people. I have faced this trick more than once in any forums including The Org. SOAD -the hardcore band- says that "We don't have any problems with Turkish people, we have problems with Turkish government". Are the governers elected by Neptunians ? We choose them. They represent Turkish people. Be yourself, at least, and yell out that "I hate Turkey". I do not hate Greece actually -I am honest, I did not have any problems and hateful dialogues with any Greeks until I met some here in this forum. Anatolia is a Turkish reign and ever will it be. Dislike the fact but drop your Loki mask. There is no need to show off any hatred so publicly. This is not the place - at least I've learned it to be so.

When it comes to Turkey into EU stuff - again and again :

More than half of Turkish population don't want to join EU. I'm one of them. It's the government managed by a single political party -AKP- that is trying to create a livelong credit to maintain their political life. Turkish nation nearly knows nothing about even what will be benefiting in case we are accepted. The general answer when asked about is that : "Erm..Well..More money?"

I'm a happy Turkish that has roots through his Middle Asian heritage. I'm not a European culturally. We are civilized people but we feel distinct from European mentality. We perceive, evaluate and react different.

Learn this. I do not want EU. And I'm getting more and more rightful about my decision because of the fact that some Europeans are even more hostile that we ever faced. I am happy being that way. I wish negotiations stop someday -like more than a half of this nation wishes it the way to be.

Treat like a sensitive and understanding European -as I've got used to them to behave that way- and stop bashing Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, one of the greatest statesman, commander and reformist of the 20th century.. Please..

P.S. The vehicle that was carrying Orhan Pamuk was attacked after his trial. He did not take any damage fortunately. Prime minister Erdogan publicly stated his anger about the lack of security with Pamuk's vehicle. The trial is postponed for now by the ministry of Justice. The general view of the professors and known figures is all about the instant cancellation of the trial.

P.S.S. I read yesterday that several historians in France publicly announced about their thoughts on cancellation the law about acceptance Armenian Genocide, including the punishment on the ones denying the Holocaust and several other laws. The main point they suggest is that these subjects are the historians' job, not the government. I was amazed actually.

P.S.S.S. "Tell a lie enough times, and it becomes truth."
~Joseph Goebbels

Well I know many Turkish people and Ive visited Turkey many times, and its bizzare that I ve heard many saying that Kemal didnt know who his father was and that he was a Islamised Jew from his mother's part (Dolme isnt that the word for the Islamised Jews?)...
E. Venizelos toghether with Antant had played a nice trick starting the M.Asian campaign so the Greek traders and competitors of certain a certain group get evicted from Asia Minor... its also worth mentioning the whole staged "support" to the Greeks from the part of the Allies that supported the Kemalists TOGHETHER with the Soviets at the time were the masks had fallen...
I dont know ANY single self respecting democratic state that has a CULT of ANY person, we have heroes and leaders but we dont put their faces on ALL currency, we dont worship them in all but the word, we dont raise them to deities and beyond any critique...
Nationalism is the greatest challenge for democracy in Turkey and the Turkish government must studied Goebbels very throurouly to follow his practices of brainwashing rampant propaganda...
Lef Eye what about the far right paramilitary gang called Boz Gurt? That murdered a Cypriot? Tasos Isaak?
Trying to deny the absence of freedom of press the violent demsotrations' suppression and lack of rule of law in Turkey its like denying that the earth is a sphere...
Turkey is the last remnant of a far right military regime but a gifted one that had played the best cards on the diplomatic table ensuring the support form the USA and the EU pretending that it doesnt see the regimes true face...


Hellenes

PS as for the Anatolia being a "Turkish reign": Wasnt the word TURK an INSULT prior the Kemalist regime? That only the enemies of the Ottomans called them like that? Also the Turks CAME in Asia Minor from central Asia what roots are you talking about? Or youre a Jannissary? Anatolia was roman for 1000 years they also thought that it would be forever dont make the same mistake...

[LeftEyeNine]

Well I know many Turkish people and Ive visited Turkey many times, and its bizzare that I ve heard many saying that Kemal didnt know who his father was and that he was a Islamised Jew from his mother's part (Dolme isnt that the word for the Islamised Jews?)...

The father of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, our great hero, is Ali Rıza Efendi



His intro from real sources here :

http://www.ataturk.com/index.php?opt...d=24&Itemid=43

After seeing all your intentional misinformation attempts, I deny taking you into consideration. 'Cause you are far from ability to dispute. There had been two more debates opened by me about Turkey & EU relationships, we always had a rational and productive debates. But this topic is obviously opened to vomit your hatred.

Get a grindcore album or something and make productive use of it in order to discharge your pathetic bashing. I won't answer any more.

P.S. Google up "EOKA" before pointing out fascist fractions that Turkish nationalists do not like at all.

[master of the puppets]

...so does this little flame war of yours (lefteyenine/hellenes) go back to WW1 or can it be traced to the ottomans?

[hellenes]

The father of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, our great hero, is Ali Rıza Efendi



His intro from real sources here :

http://www.ataturk.com/index.php?opt...d=24&Itemid=43

After seeing all your intentional misinformation attempts, I deny taking you into consideration. 'Cause you are far from ability to dispute. There had been two more debates opened by me about Turkey & EU relationships, we always had a rational and productive debates. But this topic is obviously opened to vomit your hatred.

Get a grindcore album or something and make productive use of it in order to discharge your pathetic bashing. I won't answer any more.

P.S. Google up "EOKA" before pointing out fascist fractions that Turkish nationalists do not like at all.

Well If it is pathetic to have a rational NON brainwashed view on facts and not being succumbed by NATIONALISTIC prapaganda, if its pathetic to live in a DEMOCRATIC state and NOT worship a smart and brilliantly diplomatic dictator THEN YES IM PATHETIC....
I feel sorry for you, EOKA fought the BRITISH to free Cyprus from their occupation THAT the Ottomans sold it to...
In Cyprus its very smart for the Turkish government to transport population from Turkey to gain more claims in population percentage, also selling Cypriot land to British polititians doesnt look that good either...
Ill end the debate with you here, also all the planet knows what Turkey is and what Greece is...

Hellenes

[Fragony]

I sometimes think that the only reason for having Turkey in the EU is so that Europe can have a "pet" Muslim country.

Ya. For some reason they think that Al Goata will fall on their knees 'oh they love us after all' and we can all get naked. It is so incredibly stupid it hurts, Turkey will only be 'excommunicated'. Let Turkey be Turkey with all their flaws, just as they let us, and let's keep a friendly relationship without the need to sit on eachother lap.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I second both Fragony and Slyspy.

[Ser Clegane]

Ill end the debate with you here, also all the planet knows what Turkey is and what Greece is...

I think indeed that this "debate" should end here.

Regarding the planet's knowledge about Turkey and Greece - I am rather sure that it has not been significantly enhanced by this thread.

Thanks for all civil contributions to this thread

Closed