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  1. #1

    Default Re: waterloo

    had he attempted to outflank the Allied force and push it from its position, he'd have won.
    Not necessarily. Napoleon couldn't have outflanked the British Left at Mont St. Jean because that would have put his army between the Prussians and the British. He couldn't have outflanked the British right because the only way to do so was guarded by 17,000 prime troops at Nivelles (I believe that is the name of the crossroads). Wellington (and the whole of the British army for that matter) expected something cleverer than he got on the 18th of June.

    What Napoleon should have done was concentrate on beating the British army at Quatre Bras. This would have forced the British to fall back on their lines of communication to the coast. Then and only then should he have attacked the Prussians.

    By attacking the Prussians first Napoleon allowed the British to fall back on their own accord, and by giving the Prussians a 12-hour head start before sending Grouchy he allowed the British and Prussians armies to meet up.

    Then there is the whole farce of D'Erlon's corps during the battles of Ligny and Quatre Bras, which spent the entire day marching from Napoleon to Ney and back again without fighting in either battle.
    Last edited by Grey_Fox; 12-20-2005 at 13:11.

  2. #2
    Retired Member matteus the inbred's Avatar
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    Default Re: waterloo

    bang on the money Grey Fox, i'd forgotten about the troops at Nivelles (or Hal?)

    although i think it was D'Erlon's corps that got an impromptu route march instead of a battle. Davout was back in Paris running the Ministry of War...and i doubt such a competent soldier as Davout would have allowed himself to be shuttled between two critical battlefields like that!
    maybe Napoleon should have kept Grouchy's force closer at hand on the right, and used it to counter the Prussian advance? still, in sending it to tail the retreating Prussians he was only following standard practice, unfortunately he sent it the wrong way. Grouchy did engage the Prussian rearguard at Wavre, and then extricated his force very skillfully, but it was too late to salvage his reputation.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: waterloo

    Ah yes, it was D'Erlon, not Davout, thanks for the correction

    Can't remember the name of the crossroads, it could have been Hal but I'm not too sure. Always was terrible at placenames

    People can blame rain, Grouchy, or his piles (for the love of God) but the main reasons for Napoleon's loss at Waterloo were mistakes he made both before and during the battle.

  4. #4
    Retired Member matteus the inbred's Avatar
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    Default Re: waterloo

    Can't remember the name of the crossroads, it could have been Hal but I'm not too sure. Always was terrible at placenames
    god knows, it's all Belgian to me! better go check the map again.

    yep, as we all know, mistakes tend to lose you battles sooner or later (in my case pretty much immediately...)! Napoleon had by the end of his life blamed almost everything possible for his defeat except himself. he had a poor day tactically and allowed the strategic initiative he had won to slip away amid the mud.

    it's a fascinating campaign to study though, full of what-might-have beens (aren't they all), such as; what if Gneisenau had persuaded the Blucher to withdraw?
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: waterloo

    Did Napoleon lose or Wellington and Blucher win it? Napoleon certainly did not fight a very smart battle - he came on in the old fashion and was driven off in the old fashion, as Wellington said. But the odds were against him on the day. Try most wargames of the battle and it should be apparent. He did not outnumber Wellington by much and Wellington was in a fairly strong defensive position. I'm not sure about InsaneApache's claim about Napoleon's army outnumbering the enemy even when it routed - if you add Blucher's troops to Wellington's, I think there was a clear advantage to the allies.

    Plus Wellington fought a pretty good defensive battle. The breaking of D'Erlon's assault and the defeat of the Guard were almost as nicely done as the French cavalry assaults were badly done. The fact is that Wellington had a pretty impressive record of defeating the French. Wellington had developed a tactical system and an army that could regularly defeat the Napoleonic style of attack. At Waterloo, the French showed none of the innovation or inspiration they would have needed to overturn that record.

    Blucher, of course, did his part admirably. Whipping on his army to launch an attack on Napoleon was brave, loyal and very aggressive. I am pretty sure the Iron Duke - and perhaps even Napoleon himself - would not have done as well in his position. The ordinary Allied and Prussian soldiers also fought doggedly, while the French army rather unaccountably dissolved in adversity.

  6. #6
    Retired Member matteus the inbred's Avatar
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    Default Re: waterloo

    agreed, Simon, i have wargamed this and it's very hard to win with the French, even if the Prussians turn up late in the day. (although a Waterloo refight appeared in one of the more popular wargames mags of the 80s when the Allies not only managed to lose, but lose quite crushingly!)
    troops numbers are hard to pin down, but modern estimates roughly agree that - Wellington had 65-70,000 (he sometimes stated as low as 60,000!)
    Napoleon had around 75-80,000
    the Prussians had i think 3 corps approaching the field, probably around 60,000. Napoleon had Grouchy's 30,000 chasing them, and Wellington had dispatched 17,000 infantry to some wretched location i can't remember the name of.
    (ok, everyone may now rip these figures to shreds!!)

    Napoleon definitely had more guns, but they were not as effective as usual due to Wellington's reverse slope tactics. both side's cavalry had some successes (the controversial charge of the Union Brigade did in fact achieve it's objective of clearing D'Erlon's infantry attack away), but the French then likewise threw theirs away by being very silly...although the British saved their light stuff correctly for harassment and pursuit purposes, the Prussians did most of the pursuit work.

    as for Blucher...well, he never, ever gave up, even despite being run over by French cavalry at Ligny! one of the great 'characters' of the Napoleonic Wars, his nickname was 'Old Vorwarts', or 'Marshal Forwards'.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: waterloo

    Has anyone here read 'Wellingtons Smallest Victory: The Duke, the Model Maker and the Secret of Waterloo' by Peter Hofschröer?

    The book is about a British Officer William Siborne who made a huge diorama of the battle at its crisis point of about 7.00pm. On the model he placed the Prussians - as they were - on the battlefield just after 7pm. Wellington saw this as undermining his reputation, particularly as the detailed research that Siborne had conducted revealed flaws in the Duke's official account of the battle, the Waterloo Dispatch of 19 June 1815.

    Wellington had always maintained that the Prussians had arrived late, after the battle was won, however research into Prussian orders and British orders said otherwise. With these Siborne could prove that they had actually become involved in the battle several hours earlier than Wellington claimed, and consequently had played a far greater part in the victory than was credited to them in the Dispatch. Wellington responded by insisting that Siborne was "mistaken" and demanding that most of the Prussian troops displayed on the model should be removed.

    Siborne suffered the consequences. The funding of the model was blocked, he did not receive the promotion promised for this work and he was subjected to a vicious smear campaign that went on for years. Not only was his integrity brought into question, but also his ability. Even removing 40,000 of the 48,000 Prussians did not regain him Wellington 's favour. He died a broken and impoverished man. But history had been manipulated in a blatant fashion. The model, which today is on display in the National Army Museum in London , retains this fundamental flaw.
    http://www.napoleonicsociety.com/eng...Hofschroer.htm

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