Suicidal generals - are they back in RTW 1.5?

[Jambo]

I never played RTW v1.3, being completely immersed in BI. The BI generals as promised acted intelligently, joining the battle only at the appropriate moment. Now, I kind of assumed that the same would be the case for the Imperial Campaign, but so far I've been relatively disappointed by the actions of the AI generals in RTW 1.5.

More often than not they enter the battle first, charging my ranks long before the rest of their army has even reached my soldiers. So, are they back with avengence in 1.5? Or was the 1.3 Imperial Campaign no different in this respect and it's only the BI campaign that apparently has the improved AI for the generals? I'll need to try BI next to verify, but so far things aren't too pleasing with 1.5 RTW.

Anyone else? Someone who's played 1.3 and 1.5 and maybe BI?

Regards

[GFX707]

I have noticed exactly the same things as you.

[AquaLurker]

Don't be suprised they are always there, nevered changed really.

[[GG]vonDöbeln]

Not only the general is a fool IMO - often the whole AI enemy tends to attack one or two units at a time. First comes the general, then a unit or 2 advance to get shot up by my archers, then one or 2 more... Just stoopid.

[GG]vD

[Jambo]

Not only the general is a fool IMO - often the whole AI enemy tends to attack one or two units at a time. First comes the general, then a unit or 2 advance to get shot up by my archers, then one or 2 more... Just stoopid.

[GG]vD

Yeah, this is what I've noticed - the AI armies attacking piecemeal. First the General, then a few skirmishers, and then eventually maybe a phalanx or two. Usually the general, etc have been routed by this time and the phalanxes follow suit fairly quickly.

I thought this had been addressed? It seemed better in the 1.4 BI campaign, but I haven't played the Imperial Campaign since 1.2, so I've no idea what it was like under 1.3.

I also haven't tried the 1.6 BI campaign yet to see if it's worse or the same as 1.4, which was ok.

[GFX707]

Yes, in my observations the armies behave a lot more coherently in the BI campaign but in the vanilla campaign they are still as stupid as before.

[drone]

Don't have BI, and haven't played Rome in a while, so I don't really know what I'm talking about here. Just throwing this out there.

What is the state of the formation files these days? Does BI have it's own set? Didn't adjusting the formations in vanilla improve the attack strategy of the AI? Maybe the BI campaign has a better set. Maybe I should just shut up and go buy the expansion....

[Puzz3D]

I played a lot of battles in RTW v1.3, and in big battles I remember the AI general delaying before engaging. He would usually engage with the second wave, and he could be very effective if your formation had been broken up by the first wave of fighting. I haven't played any big battles in RTW 1.5 yet. I don't remember the AI general's behavior in small RTW v1.3 battles well enough to say whether or not there is a difference in RTW v1.5.

[professorspatula]

Yeah, this is what I've noticed - the AI armies attacking piecemeal. First the General, then a few skirmishers, and then eventually maybe a phalanx or two. Usually the general, etc have been routed by this time and the phalanxes follow suit fairly quickly.

I thought this had been addressed? It seemed better in the 1.4 BI campaign, but I haven't played the Imperial Campaign since 1.2, so I've no idea what it was like under 1.3.

I also haven't tried the 1.6 BI campaign yet to see if it's worse or the same as 1.4, which was ok.

I've noticed this, but it isn't always that bad. Assuming the general stays back initially (which I find happens most of the time) what seems to be happening is the AI tries to keep a battleline - something in the past that never entered it's stupid head. When you have skirmishers infront of your own line, the AI gets a bit nervous and typically sends a unit or two out to engage them, but keeps the rest of the army together. Often the units coming after your skirmishers return to formation when they've chased them back far enough. But then you get to shoot them in the back. Anyway, the AI will keep sending units after your skirmishers until they're out of ammo and retreat behind your front line. When that happens, the AI army tends to advance at once. I can only remember from previous battles in older versions of the game where the AI basically came crashing in immediately with little cohesion. Now it presents a solid line where possible. If you have lots of archers though, you'll severly punish the AI's tactic of sending out one or two units to tackle your missile troops.

The AI needs a new trick or two up its sleeves, but providing you don't spam on the missile units, I find its possible to spend several minutes at the start of most battles trading missiles with the AI before the battle starts proper. I even now get the opportunity to use ballistae on the frontline because the AI doesn't tend to charge headfirst with little thought right into your army. If the odds are on the AI's side though, I do find them more aggressive, and the AI general can be a bit keen to lead the assault. We just need another 10 patches to sort the AI out for once and for all.

[Jambo]

Prof, you're right, it does vary a lot and I would say it's at its worst when the AI's only cav is its General unit coupled with when you have missile troops out front.

[Oaty]

Mod the general to be weaker, less suicidal charges. One of the A.I.'s goals is to try to match up it's strongest unit to your weakest. Well if the general is the strongest unit and you have a skirmisher out front you know what's coming.

[professorspatula]

Hmm, I just tried a load of custom battles and tried to recreate some of the battles in my campaign, and noticed the AI just came at me at once, the general often leading the attack. It wasn't until a few battles in, that I then decided to start the AI side as the defender, which completely changed it's tactics. It's army stayed in formation and waited for me to attack, allowing my skirmishers to move forward. It's general stayed back too. This is more like what I'd been experiencing in campaign battles, although it still felt a bit different. The AI in custom battles tends to be either aggressive/suicidal or very defensive, just depending on whether or not the AI starts as the 'defender'. I'm sure the AI in campaign battles shows a little more variety.

As to the suggestion of modding the general to be weaker, well that is always a possibility, but then even a general's unit of Round Shield cavalry will charge your front lines.

[Ludens]

I don't know if this is related, but doesn't the A.I. form up too close to your lines?

I have played a couple of battles in 1.5, and it seems to me that when advancing, the general's cavalry units tends to get in between the infantry unit in front of it. This happens to my generals as well when I move my army in formation. The A.I. general only stops moving when inside javelin/pila range while the rest of its units continue marching forward, suggesting the A.I. has given a group-move order to a point well within missile range, but the general's unit moved a bit to fast and gotten ahead of the main infantry line.

The generals I have seen so far were not so much suicidal as careless, acting pretty much like the A.I. would use an ordinary cavalry unit. The only real suicidal general I saw was in a custom battle when a Praetorian cavalry captain had gotten slightly ahead of its infantry line and decided to charge my early legionary cohorts when they threw their pila.

(May I take this opportunity to say the battles seem vastly improved since 1.2? I can't run around with cavalry and sandwich every enemy unit with minimal casualties; the A.I. armies keep a lot more together and their general doesn't die in an early phase of the battle. Many thank to CA for continuing to support R:TW! ).

[Red Harvest]

Prof, you're right, it does vary a lot and I would say it's at its worst when the AI's only cav is its General unit coupled with when you have missile troops out front.

Very true. I never have felt the suicidal general aspect has been fixed. I think it was reduced from vanilla 1.0, but that isn't saying much. They do tend to hold back more now, but they still might engage early.

The AI hates ranged units in front of your line. It still likes to use the general to attack them.