300 (Spartans, that is)

[Lemur]

I don't know how many of you have read Frank Miller's 300, but it's a really great piece of work. Very pro-Spartan, very rah-rah bronze age fascism, but a lot of fun.

I guess Sin City inspired the wonks in L.A. to try again, 'cause they're doing 300 this time. Here's a link to their site, including, most interestingly, a video diary.

What does this forum of history buffs think? Will it be good? Interesting? Even vaguely historically accurate? Will they make any attempt at all to show what a phalanx looked like?

[master of the puppets]

if you need history buffs go to the monastary.

[Lemur]

I didn't mean to impugn your honor, Puppet, by implying you are a history buff. Mods, in the interest of preventing any other misunderstandings, could you move this to the Monastary?

[master of the puppets]

personally i hope it will be killing, and thats the movie.

[Beirut]

personally i hope it will be killing, and thats the movie.

Well there's a deep dark Christmas sentiment to share. S'matter, get a lump of coal in your stocking?

Moved. Ever so gently to the Monastery.

[Adrian II]

I don't know how many of you have read Frank Miller's 300, but it's a really great piece of work. Very pro-Spartan, very rah-rah bronze age fascism, but a lot of fun.

I guess Sin City inspired the wonks in L.A. to try again, 'cause they're doing 300 this time. Here's a link to their site, including, most interestingly, a video diary.

What does this forum of history buffs think? Will it be good? Interesting? Even vaguely historically accurate? Will they make any attempt at all to show what a phalanx looked like?

Merry Boxing Day, Brother Lemur!

I trust that most of your guests have departed by now, bar a few who will stay for the rest of the week and who are now out walking in the woods or feeding the ducks with the kids. This is a time for Dads all over the world to retire into their studies and disappear into virtual limbo for the rest of the afternoon.

And what a lovely study in fascism it brings!

My idiocy detector with regard to Sparta is always the oldest source, Hedorotos, particularly the passage where he states that Spartan warriors wore red cloaks and long hair which they combed before going into battle. In the words of Plutarch: 'They would take particular care in arranging their hair, which was long because Lycurgus said that long hair adds beauty to a good face, and terror to an ugly one.'

The cloaks are there on the gentlemen in the video, but their curly wurly hair-do's (which seem to have been taken from Athenian sculpture and vases) are not authentic. Spartans wore skirts as well, not those perky little tanga's from the video which, I trust, will go down a riot with a certain audience in San Francisco.

I suppose there will be another audience for it as well, mainly youths who like to imagine themselves as cold-hearted avengers in a black and white world (the actors certainly look as if they are unable to read or write, as were most Spartan warriors). A world where women know their place (there seems to be one female character in the movie who symbolises womenhood, always a sure sign of fascism). Also, if I may venture fore a moment beyond my own habitat, I imagine some Americans long for the sort of warriors depicted here, men without political doubts or nagging consciences, without any other emotion than the patriotism and sense of duty that they were indoctrinated with since early youth.

I have not read the book, so maybe you can correct any mistaken impressions on my part. But at first sight, Brother Lemur, I have to say this looks like total cr@p to me. So, um..

.. enjoy!

[Sjakihata]

No - I do not think it will be remotely accurate. I even think the movie will show that the 300 defeated the persians...

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I imagine that America longs for the sort of warriors depicted here, men without political doubts or nagging consciences, without any other emotion than the patriotism and sense of duty that they were indoctrinated with since early youth.

We have a full caste of them in this country. I wish they took them away for themselves and we would have some life here.

OK, OK... No more backroomishness.
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[Adrian II]

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We have a full caste of them in this country. I wish they took them away for themselves and we would have some life here.

OK, OK... No more backroomishness.
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If you just give us the historical background to the phenomenon, it wouldn't be out of place in the Monastery at all, Brother Mouzafphaerre. There is a whole strain of fiction (film, literature, comics, video games) that idealises this sort of warrior.

[master of the puppets]

A world where women know their place (there seems to be one female character in the movie who symbolises womenhood, always a sure sign of fascism).

its true that a the movie might historicly depict the women as outgoing because Lakadaemeon (spelling?) was one of the few city states where women were almost equals to men, though they were housemakers they could divorce, argue, and sometimes override there husbands, they could vote and it was not uncommon for them to have a voice in polotics. they prided themselves in there physical fitness and beauty despite not using any makeup. to look at spartan womeen as you would any other greek woman as weak, voicless and simply a object is an extreme error, the spartan womenm were much respected.

[Kralizec]

Lacedaemon was not a city, rather a group of villages on the Spartan plain. They weren't a builder civilization, and didn't leave much ruins for archeological research as Athens for example.

[Adrian II]

To look at Spartan women as you would any other Greek woman as weak, voiceless and simply an object is an extreme error, the Spartan women were much respected.

That seems to have been the case, but I get the impression this woman is being depicted as simply a child-rearing asset as in so many B movies.

[Watchman]

Everything I've heard and read of this movie absolutely stinks of the sort of regressive "narcissistic projection" that was once so succintly embodied in the fearsomely jut-jawed, muscle-bound heros "who always look about to go beat someone up" characteristic of the art condoned by a certain political movement ascendant in the Thirties and since then a *literally* four-letter word...

That by all accounts the Persian High King Whatshisname in the movie mostly resembles an unholy offspring of Jabba the Hutt and Baron Vladimir Harkonnen does not help my impression one bit.

I also find the thought that there might actually be "social demand" for this kind of manure fairly disturbing, but not particularly surprising.

[Strike For The South]

If you just give us the historical background to the phenomenon, it wouldn't be out of place in the Monastery at all, Brother Mouzafphaerre. There is a whole strain of fiction (film, literature, comics, video games) that idealises this sort of warrior.

Some how a film about acinet greece turns into an America=facism +bashing =a disapointed SFTS becuase Adrian was his favorite communist/socalist. For shame For Shame

[Lemur]

For what it's worth, in the book Frank Miller drew the Spartans as being naked with the exception of their cloaks. So don't blame him for the leather thongs thingies. That's Hollywood and its irrational fear of male genitalia.

As to the whole issue of whether or not the film's going to be all rah-rah fascist Sparta, well, it's hard to tell from a production diary. I'm not sure it's so completely inappropriate to field a big-muscles fantasy every now and then. Even Robert E. Howard's much-maligned hero has his place.

Anyway, based on the posts so far, it seeems that opinion is squarely against 300. Oh well. I'm going to cling to some small shred of hope.

[Watchman]

Well, I've been singularly unimpressed by the latest run of pseudo-historical spectacle movies that've been crowding the theatres as of late; I've yet to see any hints that 300 would be any better (indeed quite to the contrary), and to boot there's a really suspicious scent lingering about it that makes my neck hairs bristle.

"First impressions: oiled muscleman with machinegun... cut to pastel bears, valentine hearts. Juxtaposition of wish fulfilment, violence and infantile imagery, desire to regress, be free of responsibility...
This all says 'war'. We should buy accordingly."
- media analysis à la Adrian Veidt, Watchmen

I think it's somehting like that which bugs me about the whole equation.

[TB666]

Well I think this movie looks great.
The half-naked spartans did raise a eyebrown but since they are naked in the book I was ok with it.
And judging by the reaction from the americans it seems he really pushing the limits .
Part of me wish that he would actually make them naked just so that we could see the reactions from the american audience
But Zack Snyder impressed me with the Dawn of the dead remake even tho it had running zombies which I hated so I think he can do a great movie.

[hellenes]

For what it's worth, in the book Frank Miller drew the Spartans as being naked with the exception of their cloaks. So don't blame him for the leather thongs thingies. That's Hollywood and its irrational fear of male genitalia.

As to the whole issue of whether or not the film's going to be all rah-rah fascist Sparta, well, it's hard to tell from a production diary. I'm not sure it's so completely inappropriate to field a big-muscles fantasy every now and then. Even Robert E. Howard's much-maligned hero has his place.

Anyway, based on the posts so far, it seeems that opinion is squarely against 300. Oh well. I'm going to cling to some small shred of hope.

Not to mention the Afrocentrism that the comic soaks off...
We all know the discracefoul abomination that is the Black Athena theory according to which the Ancients Hellene were BLACK...
Miller is aligning to the Politically Correct trends by portraying the Spartans and Xerxes as SubSaharan Africans...

Hellenes

[Watchman]

What, it almost sounds like you have ...issues with the idea...?
Any particular reason, or just the usual nationalist kind ?

[Adrian II]

Some how a film about acinet greece turns into an America=facism +bashing =a disapointed SFTS becuase Adrian was his favorite communist/socalist. For shame For Shame

Brother Strike, that was not a judgment about America, it was my first impression of the movie. Some audiences will like the movie for various reasons, I suppose. The simplistic Good versus Evil theme is not surprising in a country at war. Nor are we unfamiliar with the erotic connotations of violence. There is something really smelly about it, I couldn't help pointing that out.
And the Spartans did wear long hair.

[Kraxis]

Good and no more political issues ok?

So, it seems to be a movie that will just be pure action more or less. Screw over history to make it edible for the cartoon masses. And I think that is wrong for people are not that stupid. They will take things to heart, and sadly this is just the wrong thing, but had it been right that would not have been a problem.

Short hair, close cropped beards, 'flimsy' metal shields, no formation, open fighting, no bodyarmour ect ect... Too much.

[Pericles]

Good and no more political issues ok?

So, it seems to be a movie that will just be pure action more or less. Screw over history to make it edible for the cartoon masses. And I think that is wrong for people are not that stupid. They will take things to heart, and sadly this is just the wrong thing, but had it been right that would not have been a problem.

Short hair, close cropped beards, 'flimsy' metal shields, no formation, open fighting, no bodyarmour ect ect... Too much.

Hmmm....

I checked the website of 300 and I was not left with the above impression at all.

It will be a stylistic re-telling of the battle to be sure...

But I will wait until the film is out before I pass judgement on it.

If nothing else, I hope the film will get people interested in history and at least get them to read up on the battle/Spartans to see what actually happened.

[Kraxis]

Take a look at the little flick... Basically the director says that he wants to capture the comic feel.

[Mooks]

I always thought hoplites were mildly armoured...From the looks at the clip the movie seems way off. I can almost gurentee theres not going to be a single hoplite formation in there (Thats historically accurate). Why is everyone dressed in thongs?

[TB666]

*sighs*
This movie isn't about being accurate. It is based on a comic.
And in the comic all the spartans are actually buttnaked except for their red cape.
So the director is following the comic book and is not aiming to make a historical accurate movie.

As someone else so nicely put it on another forum:

Firstly this isnt the 'fault' of the film makers, theyre basing it off the graphic novel (a cartoon), so why are you surprised about a cartoony interpretation? This isnt a interpreatation of thermopylae, its an interpretation of '300'

Secondly, being half naked is well represented in Greek art, this is based on a graphic novel based on that

Thirdly, if you were actualy from ancient Sparta you'd probably be happy with this interpretation as it makes them seem more hardcore with no need to armour

[Watchman]

AFAIK the Spartans A) never wore their distinctive scarlet capes into battle (they'd just have gotten in the way, anyway) and B) were into at least scale cuirasses, full helmets and greaves around the time of the Persian Wars; far as I know superior weight of arms was one of the advantages the Greeks had in hand-to-hand against most Persian troops (not counting the sparabara spearmen and the Immortals, and some other armoured types).

It's a kinda lousy defence for the historical inaccuracies of a movie centred around a real historic battle to cite it being a movie of a comic book take on said battle; blithely lifting the faults of the latter into the former is a very bad habit IMO.

[TB666]

Maybe or the director is a Frank miller fan and decided to portrait it accuratelly according to his story.
Not doing it accurately he would get criticism from not following the book he is suppose to follow.
So in order to make Frank Miller's 300 he need to follow it.

[Pericles]

I think we should all follow Treebeard's injunction of "Don't be hasty..."

I saw the little flick.

Let's realize that this film is being done by a young director. The fact that he even wants to make a movie about an historical event is surprise enough...

Also:

1) the film is based on the graphic novel "300" and NOT on history books.

2) many of the actors in this film DO have long hair.

3) at the historical battle there was no real formation, since the Spartans were defending a narrow pass and were therefore in line formation to the Persians.

4) many Spartans DID fight naked. And what they're wearing in the film are NOT thongs, but what appears to be what ancient Greek warriors DID wear...

5) it looks like certain liberties are taken in the film, but from what I have seen, the acting and action look far better than what I had expected. I am looking forward to this movie...

6) do I want more armour? Yes. Do I want more authenticity? Yes. BUT... what IS there I like. Remember... this film is BASED on a graphic novel... The director wants to capture the look and feel of the novel...

7) I will wait until the movie is actually finished and in the theatres before I pass judgement on the film's merits as both entertainment and as history...

[Pericles]

AFAIK the Spartans A) never wore their distinctive scarlet capes into battle (they'd just have gotten in the way, anyway) and B) were into at least scale cuirasses, full helmets and greaves around the time of the Persian Wars; far as I know superior weight of arms was one of the advantages the Greeks had in hand-to-hand against most Persian troops (not counting the sparabara spearmen and the Immortals, and some other armoured types).

It's a kinda lousy defence for the historical inaccuracies of a movie centred around a real historic battle to cite it being a movie of a comic book take on said battle; blithely lifting the faults of the latter into the former is a very bad habit IMO.

Well, your earlier opinions in this thread where you mixed your thoughts of the pre-production phase of this movie with speudo concepts about certain modern political states, clearly identifies your personal bias against this film.

btw, Spartans did wear their red cloaks into battle (so no Spartan blood would be visible to the enemy)... (Xenophon, Constitution of the Spartans, 11, 3)

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Frank Miller... Frank Miller...


Wasn't he the bad guy in High Noon?

...
The noon day train will bring Frank Miller
If I'm a man I must be brave
Do not forsake me oh my darling
...

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