Questions on God and the Existance of Hell

[Sir Chauncy]

Hello there everyone,

I think from the title you know this is going to start a few arguements but that is not my intention, I would very much like someone with more than a passing knowledge of God to explain some of this too me.

Now from what I understand God created everything and he did a pretty good job of it too: this place isn't at all bad and he lets us have free will and all that. Now the thing is that I get a little lost after that point.

He gave us free will but he didn't give the angels that skill/ability/curse (delete as appropriate). So that means that God tells them/told them how to think and what to do. Now Lucifer himself was a fallen angel, as bad peple go he was a nasty fellow, but God must have told him to be like that, mustn't he as Angels do not have free will? And this Hell place he lives in, God must have created that too as he created everything?

From what I can see God not only created the nastiest embodiment of evil the universe has ever seen, but also made it somewhere to live.

Am I clearly missing something here that needs explaining but it seems to me that God isn't the nice chap he's made out to be.

[Del Arroyo]

You're thinking too hard. The good and the bad, heaven and hell are all a one-ness. If you are faithful to God and follow His laws you will be rewarded, both here and in the hereafter. If you scorn Him and lead an amoral and a careless life, you will reap the consequences, both now and later.

To even contemplate the nature of Free Will, or to wonder whether God looks like a Man or a Frog, is simply over-thinking the Question.

DA

[Papewaio]

Think of Gods laws as lighthouses to warn you away from dangers that have deadly consequences and Hell is when you disobey them and run aground on the rocks... drowning is your own fault.

Check out the ten commandments and then try and think of how many of them can be regularly disobeyed and still have a functioning society.

[Templar Knight]

what the hell would be the point of heaven if the world was so nice?

[Ronin]

hell doesn´t worry me anyway.....

anyone that has played Doom 3 knows that there is down there is a bunch of pussies anyway.......just pass me that shotgun over there.....

[Sir Chauncy]

I totally understand the reasons for the 10 Commandments, back in those days having such a sensible set of rules in a totally lawless age was not really about religion more about the beginnings of a workable civilization. I also understand the idea of goals in life: working hard and being "nice" to people ultimately paying off by going to heaven.

What I do not get is that God Himself must have created the devil and he must have wanted it to happen. Why would have done this? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Papewaio]

The consequence of free will is that we can freely choose. That these choices have consequences that are not always plesant is part of this freedom... no freedom to make a mistake is no freedom at all.

Gods laws are warnings on what not to do as the consequences of those decisions will hurt the person (and others) if they go through with that choice... they are warnings... the person still has the free will to choose and hurt themselves.

The devil created himself by his own free will in rejecting God and God's advice IMDHO.

[Byzantine Prince]

Isn't the devil being so mean just a scare tactic. I mean he chose evil, but that doesn't mean that he is only evil to anyone and everyone(not himself anyways). He is just a misunderstood soul. Also if the devil was defeated, evil would still be rampant, so what is his purpose, nothing.Christian mythology has more holes then anything hollywood can make up.

Oh yeah, I'm going to hell, pass me my AK-47. I'll have the time of my eternity. HAHAHA!

[Sir Chauncy]

Sorry my last reply was written as the others were being typed it seems :)

Kommodus: you are absolutley right I was not trying to make particular comments on Religion as a concept, more towards the theological aspect of it as you noticed.

You see, the vision I have whenever someone mentions Hell is a place that is predominately red, with very little need for central heating and lots and lots of screaming. It makes far more sense the way you have just described it and brings me on beautifully to another question that I have, (of which more later). But is this view the widely accepted one? The reason I say this is that the various branches of the Christian faith, Catholic, Protestant, etc etc all hold to slightly different points and certain things are far more important than others in the eyes of each. I guess what I am saying is that is God up there right now shacking his head at how staggeringly complicated we can make life for ourselves? Is there only one hell and the other 20 or so religious groupings have got it terribly wrong please read this brochure... Or is hell a very individual place tailored specifically to meet the demands of the individual?

The idea of Heaven was the other question I had, I was told that no one actually knows the real answer to this because everyone is different and therefore it cannot all be fluffy clouds and harps. Possibly just being around God is bliss and it isn't something that you can explain properly in words?
The best quote I can find about heaven is "Mans reach should exceed his grasp or what's heaven for?"

Personally I think it would be a really laugh on Gods' part if heaven was realising that Earth was a Sims game.

[Papewaio]

From what I can gather... Heaven is having a good relationship with God, Hell is when you reject God and all his Values... it is a self inflicted consequence of a decision based on free will... a spiritual self mutilation so to speak.

[Lazul]

You're thinking too hard

Thats the problem isnt it? In Christian mythology, if you think to hard you would in the end realise that your version of God isnt Good at all. And then, the priests will have a hard time preaching his words.

Its much easier for me tho, I "pray" to nature and believe that there is no such thing as miracles or divine help... just human effort and skill.

And my way of worshiping nature is more fun... sexuality... oh yeeeaaah.
Really, why repress and be ashamed of the one thing that is really good about nature!? Silly christian morality.

[Kommodus]

It seems clear that you're asking about Christian theology, so I will try to answer based on this. There are quite a few popular misconceptions about Christian theology, and even more popular tendencies to focus on the less-important, more controversial aspects of it.

1. It's common to say that beings act exactly as they're designed/evolved to act; that is to say, our choices are deterministic. If that's the case, then free will would have to be a myth for humans, animals, angels, or any other being you could think of. However, if free will is real, then our choices are genuine and non-deterministic, and we are genuinely responsible for them. If that's the case, then things really can turn out differently depending on the choices we make.

2. As far as I can tell, the angels described in the Bible have a free will just as much as any human - they have genuine choices and genuine responsibility.

3. Hell is not a place where the devil/demons live - it's not their "base of operations" as some tradition holds. Hell is separation from God (and therefore from the source of all that is good), plain and simple. The Bible uses imagery to describe both heaven and hell; it's not wise to focus on trying to discover too many literal details of either.

This is a short post, and doesn't come close to adequately answering the deep questions you've asked. However, much has been written on these topics. I'm rather fond of C.S. Lewis's writings; they tend to be understandable, insightful, and no longer than necessary. Some I'd recommend include "The Great Divorce," "Mere Christianity," and "The Screwtape Letters."

[Soulforged]

1. It's common to say that beings act exactly as they're designed/evolved to act; that is to say, our choices are deterministic. If that's the case, then free will would have to be a myth for humans, animals, angels, or any other being you could think of. However, if free will is real, then our choices are genuine and non-deterministic, and we are genuinely responsible for them. If that's the case, then things really can turn out differently depending on the choices we make.

It's common to the christian teology to state that free will is the rule, but animals don't have free will, it doesn't matter if free will is a reality or not. Though arguing about this like a science is an oxymoron, faith should be enough to determine any views about the non-existence.

2. As far as I can tell, the angels described in the Bible have a free will just as much as any human - they have genuine choices and genuine responsibility.

I saw something about this in a movie...Before crippling my argument I should say that it can be a loyal conclusion from the Old Testament book, afterall jewish belief also states that we don't have free will, we're predetermined in everyway, thus the angels are not exceptions.
Perhaps is one of those problems that the Bible usually has regarding contradictions.

3. Hell is not a place where the devil/demons live - it's not their "base of operations" as some tradition holds. Hell is separation from God (and therefore from the source of all that is good), plain and simple. The Bible uses imagery to describe both heaven and hell; it's not wise to focus on trying to discover too many literal details of either.

As there's no point in literally taking heaven existence. It could be said that heaven, as hell, is an state of the mind.

[nokhor]

It seems clear that you're asking about Christian theology, so I will try to answer based on this. There are quite a few popular misconceptions about Christian theology, and even more popular tendencies to focus on the less-important, more controversial aspects of it.

1. It's common to say that beings act exactly as they're designed/evolved to act; that is to say, our choices are deterministic. If that's the case, then free will would have to be a myth for humans, animals, angels, or any other being you could think of. However, if free will is real, then our choices are genuine and non-deterministic, and we are genuinely responsible for them. If that's the case, then things really can turn out differently depending on the choices we make."

i don't see why free will and determinism have to be mutually exclusive. why can't beings have both? i'll give an example.

say you made Choice 1 at Time A [last year] and at the time you could also have made Choice 2. looking at the decision from a different standpoint, Time B [the present] you realized that you could only have made Choice 1 at Time A though back then you thought you had two Choices. so basically the Choice was free will at Time A, but the same Choice becomes determined at Time B. but it's the exact same Choice and situation and the only difference is your relation to the Choice in terms of Time. of course this only relates to the decision maker and may not be relevant to an outside observer or force.

[Pindar]

He gave us free will but he didn't give the angels that skill/ability/curse (delete as appropriate).

Hello,

What is the above conclusion based on?