Questions on God and the Existance of Hell

[Sir Chauncy]

Hello there everyone,

I think from the title you know this is going to start a few arguements but that is not my intention, I would very much like someone with more than a passing knowledge of God to explain some of this too me.

Now from what I understand God created everything and he did a pretty good job of it too: this place isn't at all bad and he lets us have free will and all that. Now the thing is that I get a little lost after that point.

He gave us free will but he didn't give the angels that skill/ability/curse (delete as appropriate). So that means that God tells them/told them how to think and what to do. Now Lucifer himself was a fallen angel, as bad peple go he was a nasty fellow, but God must have told him to be like that, mustn't he as Angels do not have free will? And this Hell place he lives in, God must have created that too as he created everything?

From what I can see God not only created the nastiest embodiment of evil the universe has ever seen, but also made it somewhere to live.

Am I clearly missing something here that needs explaining but it seems to me that God isn't the nice chap he's made out to be.

[Del Arroyo]

You're thinking too hard. The good and the bad, heaven and hell are all a one-ness. If you are faithful to God and follow His laws you will be rewarded, both here and in the hereafter. If you scorn Him and lead an amoral and a careless life, you will reap the consequences, both now and later.

To even contemplate the nature of Free Will, or to wonder whether God looks like a Man or a Frog, is simply over-thinking the Question.

DA

[Papewaio]

Think of Gods laws as lighthouses to warn you away from dangers that have deadly consequences and Hell is when you disobey them and run aground on the rocks... drowning is your own fault.

Check out the ten commandments and then try and think of how many of them can be regularly disobeyed and still have a functioning society.

[Templar Knight]

what the hell would be the point of heaven if the world was so nice?

[Ronin]

hell doesn´t worry me anyway.....

anyone that has played Doom 3 knows that there is down there is a bunch of pussies anyway.......just pass me that shotgun over there.....

[Kommodus]

It seems clear that you're asking about Christian theology, so I will try to answer based on this. There are quite a few popular misconceptions about Christian theology, and even more popular tendencies to focus on the less-important, more controversial aspects of it.

1. It's common to say that beings act exactly as they're designed/evolved to act; that is to say, our choices are deterministic. If that's the case, then free will would have to be a myth for humans, animals, angels, or any other being you could think of. However, if free will is real, then our choices are genuine and non-deterministic, and we are genuinely responsible for them. If that's the case, then things really can turn out differently depending on the choices we make.

2. As far as I can tell, the angels described in the Bible have a free will just as much as any human - they have genuine choices and genuine responsibility.

3. Hell is not a place where the devil/demons live - it's not their "base of operations" as some tradition holds. Hell is separation from God (and therefore from the source of all that is good), plain and simple. The Bible uses imagery to describe both heaven and hell; it's not wise to focus on trying to discover too many literal details of either.

This is a short post, and doesn't come close to adequately answering the deep questions you've asked. However, much has been written on these topics. I'm rather fond of C.S. Lewis's writings; they tend to be understandable, insightful, and no longer than necessary. Some I'd recommend include "The Great Divorce," "Mere Christianity," and "The Screwtape Letters."

[Sir Chauncy]

I totally understand the reasons for the 10 Commandments, back in those days having such a sensible set of rules in a totally lawless age was not really about religion more about the beginnings of a workable civilization. I also understand the idea of goals in life: working hard and being "nice" to people ultimately paying off by going to heaven.

What I do not get is that God Himself must have created the devil and he must have wanted it to happen. Why would have done this? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Papewaio]

The consequence of free will is that we can freely choose. That these choices have consequences that are not always plesant is part of this freedom... no freedom to make a mistake is no freedom at all.

Gods laws are warnings on what not to do as the consequences of those decisions will hurt the person (and others) if they go through with that choice... they are warnings... the person still has the free will to choose and hurt themselves.

The devil created himself by his own free will in rejecting God and God's advice IMDHO.

[Byzantine Prince]

Isn't the devil being so mean just a scare tactic. I mean he chose evil, but that doesn't mean that he is only evil to anyone and everyone(not himself anyways). He is just a misunderstood soul. Also if the devil was defeated, evil would still be rampant, so what is his purpose, nothing.Christian mythology has more holes then anything hollywood can make up.

Oh yeah, I'm going to hell, pass me my AK-47. I'll have the time of my eternity. HAHAHA!

[Papewaio]

I've seen the movie Battlefield Earth... I think that has considerably more holes in it... :shudder:

[Sir Chauncy]

Sorry my last reply was written as the others were being typed it seems :)

Kommodus: you are absolutley right I was not trying to make particular comments on Religion as a concept, more towards the theological aspect of it as you noticed.

You see, the vision I have whenever someone mentions Hell is a place that is predominately red, with very little need for central heating and lots and lots of screaming. It makes far more sense the way you have just described it and brings me on beautifully to another question that I have, (of which more later). But is this view the widely accepted one? The reason I say this is that the various branches of the Christian faith, Catholic, Protestant, etc etc all hold to slightly different points and certain things are far more important than others in the eyes of each. I guess what I am saying is that is God up there right now shacking his head at how staggeringly complicated we can make life for ourselves? Is there only one hell and the other 20 or so religious groupings have got it terribly wrong please read this brochure... Or is hell a very individual place tailored specifically to meet the demands of the individual?

The idea of Heaven was the other question I had, I was told that no one actually knows the real answer to this because everyone is different and therefore it cannot all be fluffy clouds and harps. Possibly just being around God is bliss and it isn't something that you can explain properly in words?
The best quote I can find about heaven is "Mans reach should exceed his grasp or what's heaven for?"

Personally I think it would be a really laugh on Gods' part if heaven was realising that Earth was a Sims game.

[Papewaio]

From what I can gather... Heaven is having a good relationship with God, Hell is when you reject God and all his Values... it is a self inflicted consequence of a decision based on free will... a spiritual self mutilation so to speak.

[Pindar]

He gave us free will but he didn't give the angels that skill/ability/curse (delete as appropriate).

Hello,

What is the above conclusion based on?

[Del Arroyo]

No no, you see, the good and the bad are all a one-ness. Look at the old testament-- God brings crops and homes and fertility-- God brings the good. God also brings plague, war, and fiery death-- God brings the bad.

Now alot of Christians will try to say that that was just the OLD God, that ever since Jesus died on yon cross, things have been different. I would say-- look at Abraham's times, look at ours. We can make quibbles over various technologies and political inventions, but it is hard to argue that humans suffer very much less nowadays than they did three thousand years ago. Similar levels of misery = God is still angry.

As far as wondering what heaven might be like, or what hell might be like-- why? Why would this possibly concern you at all? Are you still trying to decide whether you want to be good or evil?

If Heaven and Hell are things that can be understood at all, such understanding could not possibly benefit you. Even if you aren't clear on all the rules, you KNOW which side you are on, and you KNOW what you have to do. What difference does it make if Hell is 1º cooler or the clouds in Heaven are 12% less fluffy?? "This just in-- the Devil now offering 25% discount on Deadly Sins and a free virgin at the door!!" Are you going to flip sides?? Do you see what I mean??

You see, what you must eventually realize is that we live in a real Reality, and no matter what anyone writes or reads or thinks or says its nature will not change. God is what he is, and His will can be best understood by thinking less and listening more.

DA

[Kanamori]

If it can be said that God commits evil, then He cannot be said to be infinitely good. In such a case, I see little reason to use Him as the basis for our moral code, and I see little reason to say that anything in this world is certain or that we can know anything.

[Soulforged]

1. It's common to say that beings act exactly as they're designed/evolved to act; that is to say, our choices are deterministic. If that's the case, then free will would have to be a myth for humans, animals, angels, or any other being you could think of. However, if free will is real, then our choices are genuine and non-deterministic, and we are genuinely responsible for them. If that's the case, then things really can turn out differently depending on the choices we make.

It's common to the christian teology to state that free will is the rule, but animals don't have free will, it doesn't matter if free will is a reality or not. Though arguing about this like a science is an oxymoron, faith should be enough to determine any views about the non-existence.

2. As far as I can tell, the angels described in the Bible have a free will just as much as any human - they have genuine choices and genuine responsibility.

I saw something about this in a movie...Before crippling my argument I should say that it can be a loyal conclusion from the Old Testament book, afterall jewish belief also states that we don't have free will, we're predetermined in everyway, thus the angels are not exceptions.
Perhaps is one of those problems that the Bible usually has regarding contradictions.

3. Hell is not a place where the devil/demons live - it's not their "base of operations" as some tradition holds. Hell is separation from God (and therefore from the source of all that is good), plain and simple. The Bible uses imagery to describe both heaven and hell; it's not wise to focus on trying to discover too many literal details of either.

As there's no point in literally taking heaven existence. It could be said that heaven, as hell, is an state of the mind.

[Kommodus]

Sir Chauncy,

I think you were right in your original estimation that this question would provoke controversy - especially from those who reject faith outright and those who have a narrow view of God. When you are asking questions that explore the problem (or mystery) of evil itself, I would suggest that an internet message board is not the best place to look. People here rarely have time to do more than state their position with a paltry number of supporting arguments, if any. You'd do better with ideas that are researched, thought-out, and presented well. The question is a difficult one no matter which worldview you approach it from.

As for the differing views on hell held by different Christian sects throughout history, it's true that some have promoted the fiery, demon-ridden vision you speak of. Likely, many have overthought things, and no good can come of becoming too attached to one particular idea when we really can't know what it's like. AFAIK, however, most have held to the basic meaning - in hell, people get what they have chosen. That is, having refused any relationship with God, they are left alone with their pride, selfishness, lust, etc, and the destructive effects of these.

As for heaven, you'd probably be best off dispensing with any ideas you have of angels flying around in puffy white clouds and playing harps. I don't know if anyone has seriously held that view of heaven, at least not for long. The images of beauty and music are also meant to teach us something. I think about heaven this way: we are in perfect relationship with God and with each other. His presence alone is completely satisfying. It can never get boring, since with an infinite God, there can never be a shortage of discovery. As for the details, such as what it will look like and what we'll do there, I have no idea and don't consider them important.

I hope I've been of some help. Take my analogies with a grain of salt; if they don't make sense to you, there are certainly better ones. As I said before, these are deep questions that many have searched long and hard for answers to.

[Del Arroyo]

If it can be said that God commits evil, then He cannot be said to be infinitely good. In such a case, I see little reason to use Him as the basis for our moral code, and I see little reason to say that anything in this world is certain or that we can know anything.

No, the good and the bad are a one-ness. God is neither Good nor Bad-- he is all-powerful, all-knowing, the ultimate and final Right-- He is All. "I Am, that I Am-- tell them that I Am hath sent thee." (Exodus)

The conflict you describe is the reason why no mortal HUMAN could ever be God-- but God is not measured by such means as you would use. He Is.

DA

[Kanamori]

... the ultimate and final Right

Then his actions can never said to be wrong, hence they would always be good.

Which means that those plagues, which would be inclined to call bad were actually good. This argument is problematic, as many philosophers have recognized. Since we cannot have a gauranteed understanding of any of His actions based on morality, it would be possible for Him to deceive us at every moment, in pursuit of some "greater good." In essence we can know nothing in such a system.

[Sir Chauncy]

I think I am going to knock this one on the head now as the last thing I want is to have a serious arguement in the backroom :)

But even in these few short exchanges i can see that people have a few ideas that differ, even about things that I would have seen as pretty rock solid in the Christian faith: God, Heaven and Hell. Everyone knows that Heaven is a good place and Hell is bad but apart from that there seem to be subtle differences about the actual content these popular tourist attractions. Could this be where the different religions spring from?

Kommodus: you may be right about the whole internet message board thing, I thought that as many of our members here have expressed a clear view on similar matters in the past there was a set answer to some of these things.

Del Arroyo: I really did enjoy the sales pitch for fluffier clouds, it would appear that advertising is the spawn of the Devil himself. I would also totally agree about the sentiment here

"If Heaven and Hell are things that can be understood at all, such understanding could not possibly benefit you. Even if you aren't clear on all the rules, you KNOW which side you are on, and you KNOW what you have to do."

Because deep down, religious or not, you know if you are doing the right thing or not.

I think tha having a more in depth read on the nature of evil might be a good start, does anyone have any pointers? Books from a religious and non religious viewpoint would be cool.

"I have seen evil, I have seen him under my microscope"
-Dr Moreau

[Kagemusha]

Hello Sir Chauncy! I thought to give me 5 cents to the discussion.First i would like to state that what im saying is not a christian theology but my personal wiew on the subject.I believe that God created everything,so he created the devil and hell also. I dont believe God created us becouse he just had a thought, lets create man and see what happends.I think he had a purpose to do that. He wanted us to develope so he gave us an free will,so we can decide our selves what to do.In my wiew in order to grow, man has to suffer.I think its the bad things in life that stop us time to time and make us rethink our goals and values.
So i think that the Devil is therefore a tool of God in the end.About Hell.In the bible Jesus refers the Hell as Gehenna,which was a dumping place in Jerusalem.I dont think the Hell is all fire and pain.I think its oblivion of souls.If you dont develope and try to live good life,you just cant pass to the next level.( I know this sounds awfully Buddhist.Life is suffering and you try to reach Nirvana.But like i sayed earlier im heretic. )
I also have huge doupts about my faith when i see big disasters where lots of people die seemingly without reason or when a child dies almost before his or hers life have even begun.
Only thing that i can think of at times like those is that those souls were ready to leave this place and are now in better place.
This is all my personal beliefs and it might sound funny or ridiculous to some of you,but thats my faith.Maybe im right,maybe im wrong but i guess we will never find out in this world.

[Sigurd]

Maybe a reply from an agnostic would be in order, one that has done a little studying on the topic of religion.

To me it seems the most likely idea of Angels is that of them being someone who either has lived on the earth or will live someday. There is a popular test if you ever meet one. It’s called the handshake test…
This will distinguish a “raised” angel, a fallen angel and a pre-mortal being. This means that Angels are as free as us to make choices. The raised angels have already chosen a good life and have been rewarded for it. The fallen angels were cast out of heaven for their choice of following Lucifer. The pre-mortal beings chose to follow Jehovah and will soon enjoy a life on this world making their choices again.
You see, if there is a difference in God’s angels and Satan’s angels and that at one time they were all the same, they at some point were free to make a stand or choice if you will. Hence, angels have free will.
I read somewhere that at one point, Lucifer, the Angel of morning light (a rank of some esteem) third in line after Jehovah and Michael, proposed a misguided plan yet necessary for the original and eternal plan to work; that no one should have the freedom to chose evil. All should be compelled to live the law of heaven and receive their exaltation. “Give me the glory for this”, was what brought him down. One third of the heavenly host agreed. A war of words ensued which resulted in the one third being cast out. The original plan was executed and a world was created. The Angels of power helped and one of them became the first man. Lucifer got involved and made man mortal as was according to the plan. I can’t exactly remember where I read this but Lucifer complained to Jehovah when he was accused for the deed of presenting the forbidden fruit to man: “You can not damn me for this, as this is a necessity for the progress of the original plan. This has been done many times over on other worlds”.
So what I can fathom of Christianity is that this whole charade, the world which we live on, the church, freedom of choice is just a necessary step to progress from a state: pre-mortal, to a state of exaltation. A big test to see if you truly are exaltation material. Oh, you got your memory wiped upon coming here, just to make it fair for everyone.

As to hell, I have compiled something that is taken from my own words based on own studies and that of a LDS scholar who happens to be in alignment with my understanding of this:

Hell, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus…

Outside Jerusalem lays the Valley of Hinnom or Gehenna. In ancient times this place was used to sacrifice infants to the God Molech. This place became a sinister remembrance to the atrocities committed there and was called the valley of slaughter. Later this place was further desecrated as a garbage heap and a place where bodies of criminals where thrown out. To prevent pestilence, ever-burning fires were kept smoldering in this infested refuse. I perceive it was from this picture the prophetic mind used Gehenna to signify the burnings, the torment, the anguish and unspeakable horrors of hell. It is frequently mentioned in the Bible as synonymous to hell. I also believe that Gehenna later was replaced by the word hell and repeatedly used as scare tactic to further the cause of a growing religion.
It is interesting that the other words; Hades (Greek for hell), Sheol (Hebrew) signifies the abode of resting souls. Ergo the grave; a temporal place of dwelling bereft of all that is physical. It is hell because they know they have lived a life which will possibly not qualify. It is however not an eternal place. Maybe this became purgatory in a later hotfix. The last word Tartarus (greek) was used by Peter in one place in the NT (2.Peter 2:4) to differentiate between Sheol, Hades, Hell and a place where fallen angels dwell. To me this enforces the underlying plot of older Christianity that states; all men (people) that have ever lived on this earth will be resurrected and receive an eternal body like their God.

[Lazul]

You're thinking too hard

Thats the problem isnt it? In Christian mythology, if you think to hard you would in the end realise that your version of God isnt Good at all. And then, the priests will have a hard time preaching his words.

Its much easier for me tho, I "pray" to nature and believe that there is no such thing as miracles or divine help... just human effort and skill.

And my way of worshiping nature is more fun... sexuality... oh yeeeaaah.
Really, why repress and be ashamed of the one thing that is really good about nature!? Silly christian morality.

[nokhor]

It seems clear that you're asking about Christian theology, so I will try to answer based on this. There are quite a few popular misconceptions about Christian theology, and even more popular tendencies to focus on the less-important, more controversial aspects of it.

1. It's common to say that beings act exactly as they're designed/evolved to act; that is to say, our choices are deterministic. If that's the case, then free will would have to be a myth for humans, animals, angels, or any other being you could think of. However, if free will is real, then our choices are genuine and non-deterministic, and we are genuinely responsible for them. If that's the case, then things really can turn out differently depending on the choices we make."

i don't see why free will and determinism have to be mutually exclusive. why can't beings have both? i'll give an example.

say you made Choice 1 at Time A [last year] and at the time you could also have made Choice 2. looking at the decision from a different standpoint, Time B [the present] you realized that you could only have made Choice 1 at Time A though back then you thought you had two Choices. so basically the Choice was free will at Time A, but the same Choice becomes determined at Time B. but it's the exact same Choice and situation and the only difference is your relation to the Choice in terms of Time. of course this only relates to the decision maker and may not be relevant to an outside observer or force.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I read somewhere that at one point, Lucifer, the Angel of morning light (a rank of some esteem) third in line after Jehovah and Michael, proposed a misguided plan yet necessary for the original and eternal plan to work; that no one should have the freedom to chose evil. All should be compelled to live the law of heaven and receive their exaltation. “Give me the glory for this”, was what brought him down. One third of the heavenly host agreed. A war of words ensued which resulted in the one third being cast out. The original plan was executed and a world was created. The Angels of power helped and one of them became the first man. Lucifer got involved and made man mortal as was according to the plan. I can’t exactly remember where I read this but Lucifer complained to Jehovah when he was accused for the deed of presenting the forbidden fruit to man: “You can not damn me for this, as this is a necessity for the progress of the original plan. This has been done many times over on other worlds”.

thats an interesting story, where did you get it from?

[bmolsson]

Always wondered where all these stories comes from..... Furthermore, maybe actually we are in hell already. Hell is seen as crowded, hot and dirty... Pretty much like Jakarta....

[AntiochusIII]

Always wondered where all these stories comes from..... Furthermore, maybe actually we are in hell already. Hell is seen as crowded, hot and dirty... Pretty much like Jakarta....

Or Bangkok. I was born in Hell -- ha! That sounds awesome. Where's my T-shirt? It needs to be red and with a Che Guevara picture on it, as if he says that, you know...

I cannot and will not answer the question because, in my opinion, those who do not give a definitive answer does not truly give one a satisfactory answer, and anyone who dares to answer that in a definitive way weakens his own answer.

He is not God.

There is complexity in simplicity, and yet in every simplicity we find complexity, if we but look for them.

What do you look for in heaven and hell?

[Del Arroyo]

thats an interesting story, where did you get it from?

It sounds Mormon to me.

[ShadesWolf]

From Wikipedia

From the viewpoint of the Christian tradition, Lucifer is seen as having been second in command to God himself; he was the highest archangel in heaven, but he was motivated by pride and greed to rebel against God and was cast out of heaven, followed by a third of the host of heaven. He became the Devil, and his fellow angelic rebels were known as demons.

Which I think sums it up perfectly

I also found this

- Jewish: Satan ‏(שטן)‏ in Hebrew, means "adversary" or "accuser", and is also the name used for the angel who tests believers. Satan is not considered an enemy of God, but a servant whose duties include testing the faith of humanity.

- Islamic: The Arabic word for Satan, "al-Shaitaan" ‏(الشيطان)‏ means transgressor, or adversary, as in Judaism. It is a title which is generally attributed to a being called Iblis, who is a Jinn that disobeyed God and was condemned consequently by God to serve as a source of misguidance for mankind and the Jinn to test their faith in God. Iblis is said to be the proper name for the devil-like figure named in the Qur'an whereas there are many Shaitan.

- Christian: In most branches of Christianity, Satan, originally Lucifer before he fell away from Grace, is a spiritual being or angel who was once in God's service. Satan is said to have fallen from God due to excess of pride and self-idolatry. (In Christianity, the fallen "son of the dawn" of Isaiah 14:12 is identified with the "adversary" of the Book of Job.) It is said to be Satan who whispered to man that he could become as God, negating his creaturely position, which led to man's original sin and his being cast out of Eden. Satan is also referred to as the Devil from the Greek "diavolos" (Διαβολος), meaning "slanderer" or "one who accuses falsely" (derived from a verb which most literally means "to throw across" or "carry something over"). Reportedly, LaVey made the claim that the word "devil" was derived from the Sanskrit "devi", meaning goddess (though this is thought to be an incorrect etymology).

[Geoffrey S]

I'm more inclined to the 'Hell is seperation from God' line of thought, or would be if I could bring myself to believe. A concrete idea of Hell as opposed to the abstract I've always thought to be more the work of the earlier Church than anything stated solidly in the Old Testament.

Alternatively, just find Old Harry's Game by Andy Hamilton. It's quite amusing, I assure you.