Questions on God and the Existance of Hell

[Papewaio]

From what I can gather... Heaven is having a good relationship with God, Hell is when you reject God and all his Values... it is a self inflicted consequence of a decision based on free will... a spiritual self mutilation so to speak.

[Del Arroyo]

No no, you see, the good and the bad are all a one-ness. Look at the old testament-- God brings crops and homes and fertility-- God brings the good. God also brings plague, war, and fiery death-- God brings the bad.

Now alot of Christians will try to say that that was just the OLD God, that ever since Jesus died on yon cross, things have been different. I would say-- look at Abraham's times, look at ours. We can make quibbles over various technologies and political inventions, but it is hard to argue that humans suffer very much less nowadays than they did three thousand years ago. Similar levels of misery = God is still angry.

As far as wondering what heaven might be like, or what hell might be like-- why? Why would this possibly concern you at all? Are you still trying to decide whether you want to be good or evil?

If Heaven and Hell are things that can be understood at all, such understanding could not possibly benefit you. Even if you aren't clear on all the rules, you KNOW which side you are on, and you KNOW what you have to do. What difference does it make if Hell is 1º cooler or the clouds in Heaven are 12% less fluffy?? "This just in-- the Devil now offering 25% discount on Deadly Sins and a free virgin at the door!!" Are you going to flip sides?? Do you see what I mean??

You see, what you must eventually realize is that we live in a real Reality, and no matter what anyone writes or reads or thinks or says its nature will not change. God is what he is, and His will can be best understood by thinking less and listening more.

DA

[Kanamori]

If it can be said that God commits evil, then He cannot be said to be infinitely good. In such a case, I see little reason to use Him as the basis for our moral code, and I see little reason to say that anything in this world is certain or that we can know anything.

[Kommodus]

Sir Chauncy,

I think you were right in your original estimation that this question would provoke controversy - especially from those who reject faith outright and those who have a narrow view of God. When you are asking questions that explore the problem (or mystery) of evil itself, I would suggest that an internet message board is not the best place to look. People here rarely have time to do more than state their position with a paltry number of supporting arguments, if any. You'd do better with ideas that are researched, thought-out, and presented well. The question is a difficult one no matter which worldview you approach it from.

As for the differing views on hell held by different Christian sects throughout history, it's true that some have promoted the fiery, demon-ridden vision you speak of. Likely, many have overthought things, and no good can come of becoming too attached to one particular idea when we really can't know what it's like. AFAIK, however, most have held to the basic meaning - in hell, people get what they have chosen. That is, having refused any relationship with God, they are left alone with their pride, selfishness, lust, etc, and the destructive effects of these.

As for heaven, you'd probably be best off dispensing with any ideas you have of angels flying around in puffy white clouds and playing harps. I don't know if anyone has seriously held that view of heaven, at least not for long. The images of beauty and music are also meant to teach us something. I think about heaven this way: we are in perfect relationship with God and with each other. His presence alone is completely satisfying. It can never get boring, since with an infinite God, there can never be a shortage of discovery. As for the details, such as what it will look like and what we'll do there, I have no idea and don't consider them important.

I hope I've been of some help. Take my analogies with a grain of salt; if they don't make sense to you, there are certainly better ones. As I said before, these are deep questions that many have searched long and hard for answers to.

[Del Arroyo]

If it can be said that God commits evil, then He cannot be said to be infinitely good. In such a case, I see little reason to use Him as the basis for our moral code, and I see little reason to say that anything in this world is certain or that we can know anything.

No, the good and the bad are a one-ness. God is neither Good nor Bad-- he is all-powerful, all-knowing, the ultimate and final Right-- He is All. "I Am, that I Am-- tell them that I Am hath sent thee." (Exodus)

The conflict you describe is the reason why no mortal HUMAN could ever be God-- but God is not measured by such means as you would use. He Is.

DA

[Kanamori]

... the ultimate and final Right

Then his actions can never said to be wrong, hence they would always be good.

Which means that those plagues, which would be inclined to call bad were actually good. This argument is problematic, as many philosophers have recognized. Since we cannot have a gauranteed understanding of any of His actions based on morality, it would be possible for Him to deceive us at every moment, in pursuit of some "greater good." In essence we can know nothing in such a system.

[Sir Chauncy]

I think I am going to knock this one on the head now as the last thing I want is to have a serious arguement in the backroom :)

But even in these few short exchanges i can see that people have a few ideas that differ, even about things that I would have seen as pretty rock solid in the Christian faith: God, Heaven and Hell. Everyone knows that Heaven is a good place and Hell is bad but apart from that there seem to be subtle differences about the actual content these popular tourist attractions. Could this be where the different religions spring from?

Kommodus: you may be right about the whole internet message board thing, I thought that as many of our members here have expressed a clear view on similar matters in the past there was a set answer to some of these things.

Del Arroyo: I really did enjoy the sales pitch for fluffier clouds, it would appear that advertising is the spawn of the Devil himself. I would also totally agree about the sentiment here

"If Heaven and Hell are things that can be understood at all, such understanding could not possibly benefit you. Even if you aren't clear on all the rules, you KNOW which side you are on, and you KNOW what you have to do."

Because deep down, religious or not, you know if you are doing the right thing or not.

I think tha having a more in depth read on the nature of evil might be a good start, does anyone have any pointers? Books from a religious and non religious viewpoint would be cool.

"I have seen evil, I have seen him under my microscope"
-Dr Moreau

[Kagemusha]

Hello Sir Chauncy! I thought to give me 5 cents to the discussion.First i would like to state that what im saying is not a christian theology but my personal wiew on the subject.I believe that God created everything,so he created the devil and hell also. I dont believe God created us becouse he just had a thought, lets create man and see what happends.I think he had a purpose to do that. He wanted us to develope so he gave us an free will,so we can decide our selves what to do.In my wiew in order to grow, man has to suffer.I think its the bad things in life that stop us time to time and make us rethink our goals and values.
So i think that the Devil is therefore a tool of God in the end.About Hell.In the bible Jesus refers the Hell as Gehenna,which was a dumping place in Jerusalem.I dont think the Hell is all fire and pain.I think its oblivion of souls.If you dont develope and try to live good life,you just cant pass to the next level.( I know this sounds awfully Buddhist.Life is suffering and you try to reach Nirvana.But like i sayed earlier im heretic. )
I also have huge doupts about my faith when i see big disasters where lots of people die seemingly without reason or when a child dies almost before his or hers life have even begun.
Only thing that i can think of at times like those is that those souls were ready to leave this place and are now in better place.
This is all my personal beliefs and it might sound funny or ridiculous to some of you,but thats my faith.Maybe im right,maybe im wrong but i guess we will never find out in this world.

[Sigurd]

Maybe a reply from an agnostic would be in order, one that has done a little studying on the topic of religion.

To me it seems the most likely idea of Angels is that of them being someone who either has lived on the earth or will live someday. There is a popular test if you ever meet one. It’s called the handshake test…
This will distinguish a “raised” angel, a fallen angel and a pre-mortal being. This means that Angels are as free as us to make choices. The raised angels have already chosen a good life and have been rewarded for it. The fallen angels were cast out of heaven for their choice of following Lucifer. The pre-mortal beings chose to follow Jehovah and will soon enjoy a life on this world making their choices again.
You see, if there is a difference in God’s angels and Satan’s angels and that at one time they were all the same, they at some point were free to make a stand or choice if you will. Hence, angels have free will.
I read somewhere that at one point, Lucifer, the Angel of morning light (a rank of some esteem) third in line after Jehovah and Michael, proposed a misguided plan yet necessary for the original and eternal plan to work; that no one should have the freedom to chose evil. All should be compelled to live the law of heaven and receive their exaltation. “Give me the glory for this”, was what brought him down. One third of the heavenly host agreed. A war of words ensued which resulted in the one third being cast out. The original plan was executed and a world was created. The Angels of power helped and one of them became the first man. Lucifer got involved and made man mortal as was according to the plan. I can’t exactly remember where I read this but Lucifer complained to Jehovah when he was accused for the deed of presenting the forbidden fruit to man: “You can not damn me for this, as this is a necessity for the progress of the original plan. This has been done many times over on other worlds”.
So what I can fathom of Christianity is that this whole charade, the world which we live on, the church, freedom of choice is just a necessary step to progress from a state: pre-mortal, to a state of exaltation. A big test to see if you truly are exaltation material. Oh, you got your memory wiped upon coming here, just to make it fair for everyone.

As to hell, I have compiled something that is taken from my own words based on own studies and that of a LDS scholar who happens to be in alignment with my understanding of this:

Hell, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus…

Outside Jerusalem lays the Valley of Hinnom or Gehenna. In ancient times this place was used to sacrifice infants to the God Molech. This place became a sinister remembrance to the atrocities committed there and was called the valley of slaughter. Later this place was further desecrated as a garbage heap and a place where bodies of criminals where thrown out. To prevent pestilence, ever-burning fires were kept smoldering in this infested refuse. I perceive it was from this picture the prophetic mind used Gehenna to signify the burnings, the torment, the anguish and unspeakable horrors of hell. It is frequently mentioned in the Bible as synonymous to hell. I also believe that Gehenna later was replaced by the word hell and repeatedly used as scare tactic to further the cause of a growing religion.
It is interesting that the other words; Hades (Greek for hell), Sheol (Hebrew) signifies the abode of resting souls. Ergo the grave; a temporal place of dwelling bereft of all that is physical. It is hell because they know they have lived a life which will possibly not qualify. It is however not an eternal place. Maybe this became purgatory in a later hotfix. The last word Tartarus (greek) was used by Peter in one place in the NT (2.Peter 2:4) to differentiate between Sheol, Hades, Hell and a place where fallen angels dwell. To me this enforces the underlying plot of older Christianity that states; all men (people) that have ever lived on this earth will be resurrected and receive an eternal body like their God.