Questions on God and the Existance of Hell

[Sir Chauncy]

I think I am going to knock this one on the head now as the last thing I want is to have a serious arguement in the backroom :)

But even in these few short exchanges i can see that people have a few ideas that differ, even about things that I would have seen as pretty rock solid in the Christian faith: God, Heaven and Hell. Everyone knows that Heaven is a good place and Hell is bad but apart from that there seem to be subtle differences about the actual content these popular tourist attractions. Could this be where the different religions spring from?

Kommodus: you may be right about the whole internet message board thing, I thought that as many of our members here have expressed a clear view on similar matters in the past there was a set answer to some of these things.

Del Arroyo: I really did enjoy the sales pitch for fluffier clouds, it would appear that advertising is the spawn of the Devil himself. I would also totally agree about the sentiment here

"If Heaven and Hell are things that can be understood at all, such understanding could not possibly benefit you. Even if you aren't clear on all the rules, you KNOW which side you are on, and you KNOW what you have to do."

Because deep down, religious or not, you know if you are doing the right thing or not.

I think tha having a more in depth read on the nature of evil might be a good start, does anyone have any pointers? Books from a religious and non religious viewpoint would be cool.

"I have seen evil, I have seen him under my microscope"
-Dr Moreau

[Kagemusha]

Hello Sir Chauncy! I thought to give me 5 cents to the discussion.First i would like to state that what im saying is not a christian theology but my personal wiew on the subject.I believe that God created everything,so he created the devil and hell also. I dont believe God created us becouse he just had a thought, lets create man and see what happends.I think he had a purpose to do that. He wanted us to develope so he gave us an free will,so we can decide our selves what to do.In my wiew in order to grow, man has to suffer.I think its the bad things in life that stop us time to time and make us rethink our goals and values.
So i think that the Devil is therefore a tool of God in the end.About Hell.In the bible Jesus refers the Hell as Gehenna,which was a dumping place in Jerusalem.I dont think the Hell is all fire and pain.I think its oblivion of souls.If you dont develope and try to live good life,you just cant pass to the next level.( I know this sounds awfully Buddhist.Life is suffering and you try to reach Nirvana.But like i sayed earlier im heretic. )
I also have huge doupts about my faith when i see big disasters where lots of people die seemingly without reason or when a child dies almost before his or hers life have even begun.
Only thing that i can think of at times like those is that those souls were ready to leave this place and are now in better place.
This is all my personal beliefs and it might sound funny or ridiculous to some of you,but thats my faith.Maybe im right,maybe im wrong but i guess we will never find out in this world.

[Sigurd]

Maybe a reply from an agnostic would be in order, one that has done a little studying on the topic of religion.

To me it seems the most likely idea of Angels is that of them being someone who either has lived on the earth or will live someday. There is a popular test if you ever meet one. It’s called the handshake test…
This will distinguish a “raised” angel, a fallen angel and a pre-mortal being. This means that Angels are as free as us to make choices. The raised angels have already chosen a good life and have been rewarded for it. The fallen angels were cast out of heaven for their choice of following Lucifer. The pre-mortal beings chose to follow Jehovah and will soon enjoy a life on this world making their choices again.
You see, if there is a difference in God’s angels and Satan’s angels and that at one time they were all the same, they at some point were free to make a stand or choice if you will. Hence, angels have free will.
I read somewhere that at one point, Lucifer, the Angel of morning light (a rank of some esteem) third in line after Jehovah and Michael, proposed a misguided plan yet necessary for the original and eternal plan to work; that no one should have the freedom to chose evil. All should be compelled to live the law of heaven and receive their exaltation. “Give me the glory for this”, was what brought him down. One third of the heavenly host agreed. A war of words ensued which resulted in the one third being cast out. The original plan was executed and a world was created. The Angels of power helped and one of them became the first man. Lucifer got involved and made man mortal as was according to the plan. I can’t exactly remember where I read this but Lucifer complained to Jehovah when he was accused for the deed of presenting the forbidden fruit to man: “You can not damn me for this, as this is a necessity for the progress of the original plan. This has been done many times over on other worlds”.
So what I can fathom of Christianity is that this whole charade, the world which we live on, the church, freedom of choice is just a necessary step to progress from a state: pre-mortal, to a state of exaltation. A big test to see if you truly are exaltation material. Oh, you got your memory wiped upon coming here, just to make it fair for everyone.

As to hell, I have compiled something that is taken from my own words based on own studies and that of a LDS scholar who happens to be in alignment with my understanding of this:

Hell, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus…

Outside Jerusalem lays the Valley of Hinnom or Gehenna. In ancient times this place was used to sacrifice infants to the God Molech. This place became a sinister remembrance to the atrocities committed there and was called the valley of slaughter. Later this place was further desecrated as a garbage heap and a place where bodies of criminals where thrown out. To prevent pestilence, ever-burning fires were kept smoldering in this infested refuse. I perceive it was from this picture the prophetic mind used Gehenna to signify the burnings, the torment, the anguish and unspeakable horrors of hell. It is frequently mentioned in the Bible as synonymous to hell. I also believe that Gehenna later was replaced by the word hell and repeatedly used as scare tactic to further the cause of a growing religion.
It is interesting that the other words; Hades (Greek for hell), Sheol (Hebrew) signifies the abode of resting souls. Ergo the grave; a temporal place of dwelling bereft of all that is physical. It is hell because they know they have lived a life which will possibly not qualify. It is however not an eternal place. Maybe this became purgatory in a later hotfix. The last word Tartarus (greek) was used by Peter in one place in the NT (2.Peter 2:4) to differentiate between Sheol, Hades, Hell and a place where fallen angels dwell. To me this enforces the underlying plot of older Christianity that states; all men (people) that have ever lived on this earth will be resurrected and receive an eternal body like their God.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I read somewhere that at one point, Lucifer, the Angel of morning light (a rank of some esteem) third in line after Jehovah and Michael, proposed a misguided plan yet necessary for the original and eternal plan to work; that no one should have the freedom to chose evil. All should be compelled to live the law of heaven and receive their exaltation. “Give me the glory for this”, was what brought him down. One third of the heavenly host agreed. A war of words ensued which resulted in the one third being cast out. The original plan was executed and a world was created. The Angels of power helped and one of them became the first man. Lucifer got involved and made man mortal as was according to the plan. I can’t exactly remember where I read this but Lucifer complained to Jehovah when he was accused for the deed of presenting the forbidden fruit to man: “You can not damn me for this, as this is a necessity for the progress of the original plan. This has been done many times over on other worlds”.

thats an interesting story, where did you get it from?

[bmolsson]

Always wondered where all these stories comes from..... Furthermore, maybe actually we are in hell already. Hell is seen as crowded, hot and dirty... Pretty much like Jakarta....

[AntiochusIII]

Always wondered where all these stories comes from..... Furthermore, maybe actually we are in hell already. Hell is seen as crowded, hot and dirty... Pretty much like Jakarta....

Or Bangkok. I was born in Hell -- ha! That sounds awesome. Where's my T-shirt? It needs to be red and with a Che Guevara picture on it, as if he says that, you know...

I cannot and will not answer the question because, in my opinion, those who do not give a definitive answer does not truly give one a satisfactory answer, and anyone who dares to answer that in a definitive way weakens his own answer.

He is not God.

There is complexity in simplicity, and yet in every simplicity we find complexity, if we but look for them.

What do you look for in heaven and hell?

[Del Arroyo]

thats an interesting story, where did you get it from?

It sounds Mormon to me.

[ShadesWolf]

From Wikipedia

From the viewpoint of the Christian tradition, Lucifer is seen as having been second in command to God himself; he was the highest archangel in heaven, but he was motivated by pride and greed to rebel against God and was cast out of heaven, followed by a third of the host of heaven. He became the Devil, and his fellow angelic rebels were known as demons.

Which I think sums it up perfectly

I also found this

- Jewish: Satan ‏(שטן)‏ in Hebrew, means "adversary" or "accuser", and is also the name used for the angel who tests believers. Satan is not considered an enemy of God, but a servant whose duties include testing the faith of humanity.

- Islamic: The Arabic word for Satan, "al-Shaitaan" ‏(الشيطان)‏ means transgressor, or adversary, as in Judaism. It is a title which is generally attributed to a being called Iblis, who is a Jinn that disobeyed God and was condemned consequently by God to serve as a source of misguidance for mankind and the Jinn to test their faith in God. Iblis is said to be the proper name for the devil-like figure named in the Qur'an whereas there are many Shaitan.

- Christian: In most branches of Christianity, Satan, originally Lucifer before he fell away from Grace, is a spiritual being or angel who was once in God's service. Satan is said to have fallen from God due to excess of pride and self-idolatry. (In Christianity, the fallen "son of the dawn" of Isaiah 14:12 is identified with the "adversary" of the Book of Job.) It is said to be Satan who whispered to man that he could become as God, negating his creaturely position, which led to man's original sin and his being cast out of Eden. Satan is also referred to as the Devil from the Greek "diavolos" (Διαβολος), meaning "slanderer" or "one who accuses falsely" (derived from a verb which most literally means "to throw across" or "carry something over"). Reportedly, LaVey made the claim that the word "devil" was derived from the Sanskrit "devi", meaning goddess (though this is thought to be an incorrect etymology).

[Geoffrey S]

I'm more inclined to the 'Hell is seperation from God' line of thought, or would be if I could bring myself to believe. A concrete idea of Hell as opposed to the abstract I've always thought to be more the work of the earlier Church than anything stated solidly in the Old Testament.

Alternatively, just find Old Harry's Game by Andy Hamilton. It's quite amusing, I assure you.