EB Stats

[QwertyMIDX]

I am, among many other things, one of the EB stats balancers. I would like some input on what you think needs changing for a more balanced game.

[Dooz]

One thing I noticed right off the bat is unit speeds. Aren't they still a little too fast? It's not distractingly fast, but just seems a bit much. I'm going to try the unit speed modifier which takes down all speeds evenly by way of terrain and see if that helps.

[bean_22]

Hmm don't really know about that. Feels like it has a pretty good balance. Effecting the speed could change that (at least according to the RTR forums unit speed affects charge and thus their balance). I don't think things move too fast. Elephants seem to die a LITTLE too easily one or two barrages from peltasts will leave about half the indian elephants dead. Although they appear to do plenty of damage.

[Mad Guitar Murphy]

Playing as Parthia I have major problems facing Seleucid and Bactrian General's Bodyguards. They are basically immune to arrows (one time I had 8 units of horse archers discharge all of their arrows on a unit of 120 Seleucid bodyguards and managed to kill only half of them) and also they cannot really be countered by any other unit the Parthians have. Cataphracts and the javelin armed persian cavalry units are all killed in no time and parthian infantry (including the pikemen) don't do the job either. Right now the only way to beat them is by surrounding them and hoping they rout.

Mad guitar Murphy

[Iskandr]

Here are a few quick observations:

1. Theurophorai/Peltasti- these two are all fairly close in stats. The only major difference I can see between the first two is that the Peltasti are better (!) charging, and theTheus are better against cavalry. Are the theus supposed to have identical armor and defense? Also, a charge of 1 and using spears makes them more or less worthless when flanking other infantry, which is both what I understand their role was and the description states.

2. Not really stats, but Macedon seems to be completely without the ability to recruit cavalry, except via mercenaries. There is a thread with a fix for the Companions, but it would seem that there is nothing else- no hippokontasai, hippeis, Thessalians, anything. Admittedly, I have only built the highest level barracks in Pella, and no sign of Hypaspistai or Agema or any other elite units at all, but I assume I am missing some other required building for them.

3. Akontisai and other skirmisher units (slingers, archers, etc.) seem to last an awful long time if they actually face a cavalry charge or turn on the cav after it hits. I've had peltastai decimate a Thessalian heavy cavalry after it charged them from behind. Cavalry as a whole seems vastly weaker against some units. The computer also seems to know this, as they regularly charge any non-phalanx unit with whatever skirmisher they have laying around.

4. Related to 3, somewhat- phalanx units are now just silly. I had a group of Pezhataroi fighting my hoplitai. My Companions hit him from the rear, killed 3 (large unit size) then lost a quick dozen men when the Pez swung their sarrisa around before they finished disengaging. The Pezhataroi then swung BACK around to punish the hoplitai a little more before a wave of Galatian swordsman hit them from behind- they turned, saw them off with NO losses, then went back to chewing up the hoplitai, who didn't get any kills this whole time the while pezhataroi kept turning to ignore them and fight off the more dangerous threat. While I assume this is probably a CA "feature", the lower kill rates make this a problem I never saw in vanilla or RTR. Basically, is there a way to stop a phalanx from changing facing while engaged? Otherwise, I think their armor or defense needs to be cut down somewhat to make them actually take losses when hit away from the pikes before they can respond.

5. Pirate ships- the stats for the "Great Pirate Fleet" ships are more than 2x the best ship I was able to build with the 2nd level naval yard- while I certainly would agree that pirates were a major threat during the era, I haven't ever read of them destroying a major power's navy in pitched battle before either- also, one huge unsinkable pirate fleet doesn't seem to simulate the way pirates actually operate- profit is the only motive usually, and sinking warships is a lot less lucrative than raiding merchants and villages.

6. Speaking of ships- how about a virtually unprotected transport- something a little less pricey and faster to build than the warships. The computer seems to be pretty aggresive when fighting at sea, so using one anywhere but the safest spots or for an emergency wouldn't be very useful. Of course, as long as one ship carries as many as a fleet this isn't a major concern (certainly not worth cutting a real unit anyway).

More next time I get a chance to play

Iskandr

[Simmons]

I know this is a very sensitive subject but I think that cavalry charges are weak should the Akontisai mentioned above even stand and fight after being hit in the rear by a companion cavalry charge for example.

[QwertyMIDX]

Yeah, the problem with cavalry charges is that 1.2 has a bugged charge bonus so other methods have to be used. Hopefully I sort it out a bit more, although don't expect to see heavy cav trampling over much of anything with a frontal charge (except skirmishers whose melee skills I will try and nerf).

[monkian]

I 2nd that a small, cheap transport ship should be buldable- epsecialy for Casse as getting your diplomat onto main land Europe just to ask for trade or sell maps is far too expensive.

[Sartaq]

Playing as Parthia I have major problems facing Seleucid and Bactrian General's Bodyguards.

I've had two "jedi general" encounters with the Bactrian guards. Each time I had them completely outnumbered and surrounded with powerful units. The general must have absorbed 100+ hits.

[QwertyMIDX]

I've been considering cutting general units down from a battle sized force to a token bodyguard force for most factions. Any thoughts?

[Simmons]

Yeah, the problem with cavalry charges is that 1.2 has a bugged charge bonus so other methods have to be used. Hopefully I sort it out a bit more, although don't expect to see heavy cav trampling over much of anything with a frontal charge (except skirmishers whose melee skills I will try and nerf).

Sounds wonderful to me

[Ano2]

I've been considering cutting general units down from a battle sized force to a token bodyguard force for most factions. Any thoughts?

Problem with this is suicidal generals.

I think the balance is about right, thoguh maybe increase all defensive values for slightly longer battles?

1.5/6 corrects the charge values I think (And makes for challegning battles!).

[QwertyMIDX]

Yeah the charge bonus bug is fixed in 1.5 and 1.6 (I keep begging for a port). Also, I haven't seen too many suicide generals in either EB or in 1.5, so I think I will do some testing once I'm back at home with my computer.

[econ21]

I've been considering cutting general units down from a battle sized force to a token bodyguard force for most factions. Any thoughts?

Just curious, but why are you thinking of doing this? Is it to more faithfully reflect historical orders of battle? If so, it may be a counter-productive to producing a good historical simulation. I suspect it would be too easy for the player to decapitate the AI and thus produce unhistorical results (my early Shogun battles tended to degenerate into this). Yes, perhaps the player should exercise self-restraint but personally I find gaming systems that require such behaviour to be a little frustrating. What you are doing with a historical game is simulating history - you don't have to literally represent every feature to do this and sometimes literalism in one area reduces the overally validity of the simulation. One way to think about ahistorically large bodyguard units is that it is just other elements of the army rallying around and fiercely defending its leader (or joining him in leading a crucial assault etc). From what I've read, trying to kill the enemy's general is a historical tactic but it should not be easy. It's for this reason I used to be happy with 2HP generals, despite it being ahistorical when looked at in isolation.

If you want to reduce bodyguard size for gameplay reasons, I'd be curious as to the reasoning. I find strong AI bodyguards rather a fun challenge. I would not worry about players abusing them in SP (prudence is a restraint anyway).

[pezhetairoi]

I haven't yet tested any units in battle except the Romani's, but I've taken a look at some of the other stats. I noticed that the Aursi Baexdzhyntae (That how you spell it?) have a charge bonus of 55. That seems...excessive? Especiall considering they are only first-tier riders.

[The_Mark]

Charge bonuses have very little effect, if any. You can ignore them.

[Chester]

Elephants vs Skirmishers

I'm able to kill an entire unit of african elphants with one or two volleys of javellins. I can route them on one volley and kill them on the second.

I'm not sure if that's what you wanted. It will force eastern players to really out flank and out manueuver the skirmishers. Or, you could try tempt the AI or opposition player to spend their javelins on lesser units.

I think it's cool, but the AI is too stupid to protect the elephants. I can nerf them before the main battle commences.

Strength melee Archers

They seem to be a bit difficult at times to route when using calvary. I smash in to their flanks to begin with, then they loosen up in formation, and pull out spears. They are able to kill a handful of my calvary, which does not seem like much, but for a player like me, calvary and how I use it is always the key to my victories. So losing 5 or 6 riders to archers will hurt me since those very Horsemen will probably hit 3 different groups of infantry in 3 different waves. Not mention chasing down routers. (I love calvary). I never worried about archers before, till now. Unless I use a general's calvary, regular seems to take a bit of a beating. Not much, but a bit. I thought archers had poor melee skills to start with. I don't see how low armoured units like them would stick around for a cavalry charge.

[QwertyMIDX]

Spear armed archers should be able to stand up to some cavalry attacks, especially some of the 'barbarian' ones who aren't the sad sorry militia of their civilized western counterparts. Still, missle troops do seem to be too tough in melee at the moment.

[Iskandr]

I totally agree with units like Doryphorai (sp?) and such beating up on light cavalry, but I do hope we get the 1.5/1.6 version with fixed charge bonus. It's really annoying seeing 2 full strength units of companions inflict 3-4 casualties on archers when they hit them from behind. Does anyone know if there is a malus when the charge target is running away? It seems that a lot, the light troops will run away until the cavalry finally catches up and kills 1 or 2 (thus slowing down from the charge) then instantly rally back into melee with the now stationary cavalry. In the real world, unless the light troops reached broken terrain (sadly absent from CA's dream world) or supporting troops, the chance of them halting and reforming in this circumstance is essentially 0, regardless of morale or experience.

Finally, as an aside, does anyone know what the requirements are to build Macedonian infantry beyond Pezhataroi? I mean Hypaspists and the like.

thanks,
Iskandr

[Sartaq]

I've been considering cutting general units down from a battle sized force to a token bodyguard force for most factions. Any thoughts?

I don't find the generals unit to be a problem. The general himself can be. Waiting 15-20 seconds for him to die on x3 TC, while completely surrounded by my own generals is a bit jarring. But for the sake of the AI there doesen't seem to be much that can be done.

[Poseidon]

happy new year

[QwertyMIDX]

The speed of a charging unit relative to the unit it is attacking seems to have a pretty serious effect yes.

[pezhetairoi]

Yesterday I took my Roman consular army against the large Epeirote army that always appears in Calabria after the first year. I found it somewhat remarkable that two units of Epeirote peltastai were able to stand up against the charge of my Romani faction leader and member and a unit of equites combined, and fight them to a standstill and hold them there for half the battle instead of being run over. It took a rear attack by my other cavalry wing, who easily ran over the other Epeirote wing's akontistai, then ran across the enemy rear, to rout them. Isn't peltastai morale a tad too high? I mean, considering the akontistai routed the instant the first line of horsemen reached them, the fact that the peltastai got into a close-in scrap seems almost too much to believe.

[Iskandr]

As mentioned earlier, Peltastai have virtually the same stats as Theurophorai- 20 total defense, the same as Pezhetairoi. That's more than twice the defense of Akontistai (8) and better than levy hoplites (14). Seems a little over the top, or maybe the cav just needs better offense?

Iskandr

[pezhetairoi]

I observed that my Equites Consulares have 2 hit points, but the Molossian bodyguards of the Epeirotes only have 1. Isn't that a bit unfair? One unit of my consulares can rip through the Molossians like butter.

[QwertyMIDX]

It would do everyone well to remeber that Peltastai as estentially rearmed Hops or Pezhets. They are well trained men.

[Ludens]

I've been considering cutting general units down from a battle sized force to a token bodyguard force for most factions. Any thoughts?

I have noted that the Hellenistic generals are incredibly though. It takes a really long time to get them down in close combat. Especially the Ptolemic bodyguard, who appear to have double hitpoints. I think decreasing their armour/defence a tad, and making sure all bodyguard units have only 1 hitpoint will improve the balance, especially when the step to 1.5 is made. I haven't tried out the other generals yet. Also, the lightest skirmishers can stand up to cavalry-charges right now, but I think this problem will be solved by 1.5 as well.

(I know the decision to upgrade has not been taken yet, but several members have suggested that EB will upgrade.)

[Iskandr]

It would do everyone well to remeber that Peltastai as estentially rearmed Hops or Pezhets. They are well trained men.

Shouldn't training equate to the defense SKILL, not armor though? I know this would make a big difference to missile fire, not sure about cavalry charges.

Iskandr

[O'ETAIPOS]

Shouldn't training equate to the defense SKILL, not armor though? I know this would make a big difference to missile fire, not sure about cavalry charges.

Iskandr

As they are men from Pedzetairoi or Hoplitai they have the same armour and even better shield.

akontistai are poor levy called in RTW peltlasts while EB peltlastai are well trained medium level skirmish/meele inf

[Sdragon]

Macedon bodyguards are nasty, they are seriously over the top. As Greeks I sent my army to deal the killing blow to the faction. I reached the town and saw it had 4 generals in it. I looked at my 14 stack army, shook my head and went home. It wasn't worth the cost of half my army.

Also cities should all have some kind of levies troops. In my Pontus campaign one of the Macedon islands kept building a 15 stack army of slingers (nothing else) and attacking a city only to get destroyed. After years of this the city had an army with silver chevrons.