A Nerdy Question on LOTR

[Kongamato]

I wonder if anyone could answer a question I have. I've only seen the movies, so this may not even be a legitimate question. When Isildur took Sauron's fingers off, Sauron apparently went nuclear and took out everyone in a quarter-mile radius. How did Isildur survive that?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The "blast" in the movie presumably only knocked people off their feet.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Well, the only god of the movies was making me think "WTF?! Why on earth people become fanatics over such nonsense and even take nicknames and all?" Then I decided to make some research and realized that there might actually be some potential in this Tolkien fellow (being chaps with C.S. Lewis etc.). Out of curiousity I got the books and

(one for The Hobbit and each of the LotR volumes)

Then I realized how huge a homicide those nonsense films were.
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[Brutus]

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Well, the only god of the movies was making me think "WTF?! Why on earth people become fanatics over such nonsense and even take nicknames and all?" Then I decided to make some research and realized that there might actually be some potential in this Tolkien fellow (being chaps with C.S. Lewis etc.). Out of curiousity I got the books and

(one for The Hobbit and each of the LotR volumes)

Then I realized how huge a homicide those nonsense films were.
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You didn't like them? I thought they were quite good (started reading the books because I saw FOTR back in 2001) and, although they are not up to the standards of the books (which film from a good book ever is?) I thought they were pretty nice in their own right as well as being a nice illustration to the books themselves (much in the way the Harry Potter films are).

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

The Hobbit rocks! LOTR is very good; just a hair less something.

The movies were fun.

EDIT: Though not as good, true.

[Togakure]

I've been a fanatical fan of the books for about 35 years, and though there are some grand liberties taken in the films, I thought they were, overall, a magnificent accomplishment. My personal imagery from many readings prior to seeing the movies is solid and will never be supplanted by Jackson's. Nevertheless, I think the films represent one of the definitive cinematic accomplishments of my lifetime, and sport some very fine acting, sets, costumes, and special effects as well. Personally, I'm very grateful to Peter Jackson and the entire crew for what they've offered up.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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The first film, at least, was a good time killer but never, and I say never, up to the foot of the books. I can list what grand liberties make them third rate holywood action movies but I'm in a lazy late morning mood right now. For the least, many of the chief characters and personalities (Frodo the crybaby, Aragorn aka Conan the barbarian, the Wizards out of a Gargamel mood dueling with the staves and all...) have been perverted and bastardized. While definitely enough darama exists in the works, more have been invented in the silliest holywood fashion such as the Aragorn - Elrond - Arwen balony...

Apart from the content, the books are true artworks. The movies aren't, which many holywood productions, no matter how much of a box office success they achieved, are. I'll take (for an extreme comparison) Terminator 2 over any of them. (To be fair I've never seen The Two Towers completely but still I saw enough of it and the rest two.)

Also, I'm not (yet) a fanatic of the books. Nothing wrong with being one but I'm not. But I admit that I love them and I'm reading The Hobbit for the second time in hardly longer than a month. As I said earlier, the movies were at least useful for me inciting a curiousity for the real stuff, but in a different way.
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[Mouzafphaerre]

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I've read an interesting article: Who is Tom Bombadil?

A well laid out and semantically convincing writing, it seems, indifferent than almost anything about the topic, to overlook a small yet significant detail, which I have pointed out in an email to the author:

Before the final journey of the Hobbits under Bombadil's escort, when he lays the treasure salvaged from the barrow-wight's hoard and presents the them their "swords", which is yet another display of his unposessing nature hence a point supporting the analogy with Aulë, he takes a single broch for himself: "Here is a pretty toy for Tom and his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!" (I: 1/VIII, p.157, Houghton-Mifflin edition)

As I understand it, this clearly states a former lady of Bombadil's, who "was", "wore" the broch. Goldberry is apparently a later lady, found by Tom in the pool of the Withywindle, thus not with him from the beginning. It can be perceived that the former lady had been a victim of the barrow-wight, though not for certain. However, it's pretty clear that there was one, and is no more, whom "they", ie Bombadil and Goldberry, will not forget, Goldberry wearing her broch. I'll leave this overlooked yet significant detail without any conclusion.

Thoughts?
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[Sardo]

I've always taken this fair 'she' to be a noble lady of the Dunedain of Arnor, since the barrow-mounds were graves of that people before the wights were sent there by the Lord of the Nazgul. The treasures therein belonged also to them (like the swords Bombadil gave to the hobbits: Pippin's is later recognised by Denethor to be the work of his kinsmen of the north, long before in the wars with Angmar).

Bombadil being 'Eldest', it should come as no surprise that he had known this lady to a greater or lesser degree.

You also mention an 'analogy with Aulë'. Without having read the article (not enough time - exams), I think it is safe to assume that Bombadil was not meant to be one of the Valar, or analogous to them. Nor could any other explanation of his nature be found, because I seem to recall that Tolkien explicitly stated somewhere that Bombadil was meant to be an enigma.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Do read the article when you have time. Hargrove nearly proves his Aulë & Yavanna theory without damaging the enigma. Actually, I couldn't give up the LotR reread after getting the Silmarillion and decided to carry them on together. It's no hard since they have different styles and content anyway. So, while I was reading the Bombadil adventure it flashed in my mind:

GAH! These chaps are Valar! Let me find them in the Silmarillion.

I didn't look them up though and went on a web search. Reading almost everything about Bombadil, I came up with this article.

He replied to the email in detail and even kindly attached another one of his articles. In summary, he doesn't think the former lady was a wife of Bombadil's and that Goldberry also knew her.
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[Sardo]

Well... I've read it now, and admittedly the author makes a good case for his theory... but I'm still not entirely convinced. Some things he writes really seems like grasping at straws to me; for instance, Goldberry's green garment indicating that she is Yavanna because Yavanna also wears green, or his dismissal of the whole 'daughter of the River' thing because of the other things 'unrevealed or unexplained', such as Gandalf and the Eagles not being revealed as Maiar, the 'origin of the orcs' thing and even the rumour of Rohan's selling horses to Mordor.
Also, he rules out the possibility of Tom being a Maia because 'there is no Maia in the Silmarillion who matches Tom's general character'. Seeing as how there were supposedly hundreds of Maiar, I think the author is a bit over-eager to skip right ahead to the Valar.

On the other hand, maybe I'm simply sticking my head in the sand because the idea of two Valar taking up a life as Tom merry dol Bombadil and his spouse is just not what I want my Valar to do. I liked the simple 'enigma' solution better.

One last note: if Aulë and Yavanna became Tom and Goldberry, they must've done so immediately after the War of Wrath, as I think Elrond tells the Council that Tom was already around when he was young. I think that this would kind of rule out Aulë's supposed interest in hobbits being the reason for assuming the Bombadil persona, as hobbits aren't even mentioned until a good way into the Third Age, and Tom did apparently show himself to the Elves in this form (or at least that's what I make of Elrond's remark, without having the book to hand).

You know, I came from a Tolkien messageboard (which I haven't visited in a long long time now), where I never took part in the book discussions, and now, on a Total War forum, I'm finding myself discussing the nature of Tom Bombadil, one of the things, along with Balrog wings and the origin of orcs, that one should avoid discussing. Kind of ironic, if you ask me.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Honestly, I won't challange the Aulë/Yavanna theory, nor will I subscribe to it without questioning, but for some reason I can't make out "reasonably" I feel that Tom and Goldberry must be of the Valar/Valier.

Hargrove is generally well aware of a fact and stresses it in his both articles, though he himself apparently contradicts with it at times: Tolkien doesn't tell everything from a factual third person view; most of the time he merely translates what the Hobbits, Gondorians, Elves etc. told. In that sense Silmarillion is merely Elven theology and mythology, not necessarily what exactly happened. That's why, there's enough enigma around the Ainur of whatever order already and Bombadil's enigma is apt to fit well.

His relation -or lack thereof- with the ring and behaviour against it seems reasonable enough if he is indeed Aulë. It's his apprentice's toy and however big wouldn't surpass his, the master's power. OTOH, the Maiar Gandalf and Saruman, being of a lesser order (in Elven terms) and posessing equal or less power than their "kin", are prone to its effects etc.
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[gardibolt]

A little late, I suppose, but the Original Poster can read what Tolkien wrote (admittedly little) of the sequel, The New Shadow, in one of the History of Middle Earth volumes edited by Christopher Tolkien. It's in volume XII, The Peoples of Middle Earth. Most of the book is devoted to the writing of the appendices to LOTR, but it has some fascinating stuff about the Fourth Age.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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I'm reading through Silmarillion (along with the LotR the second time ) and about to order Unfinished Tales! This guy is just addictive.

There's a website with a huge loads of FAQs here. Badly designed its is, I have to say, and you may need to wander in the directories to discover most of the content. Seems some nerds out there don't have any life but Tolkiening!
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