Realistic Camillian time army?

[Ragabash]

I think you are correct for the cavarly part, that most Roman cavarly were mercenaries from north. I just find it too "hard" to run one hero to north( rebel terrain in beginning of the game), recruiting all cavarly, bring em back to southern armies for fighting for sicily,southern part of Italy and some Carthagian cities. After taking northen Italy to gain access to gaul cavarly I think I will began to use them.

As I said I don't know too much of this period.

So the Romans used mercenaries from northen Italy and Samnites as "elite" swordsmen and spearmen for their army correct?

I just always tought that before Marian reforms Rome didn't trust so much of their army to mercenaries/auxilaries as they did after reform.

Thanks very much for your feedback. It seems I have some studying to do regarding this soon

[Reenk Roink]

There are some good online sites about the topic, I think the EB website may even have a link to a couple.

Also, a great book to get is Soldiers and Ghosts by J.E Lendon...

[the_handsome_viking]

I think you are correct for the cavarly part, that most Roman cavarly were mercenaries from north. I just find it too "hard" to run one hero to north( rebel terrain in beginning of the game), recruiting all cavarly, bring em back to southern armies for fighting for sicily,southern part of Italy and some Carthagian cities. After taking northen Italy to gain access to gaul cavarly I think I will began to use them.

As I said I don't know too much of this period.

So the Romans used mercenaries from northen Italy and Samnites as "elite" swordsmen and spearmen for their army correct?

I just always tought that before Marian reforms Rome didn't trust so much of their army to mercenaries/auxilaries as they did after reform.

Thanks very much for your feedback. It seems I have some studying to do regarding this soon

That gives me an idea...

What if your DIPLOMATS, or SPYS, could do recruiting???

that would be awesome, and I'd imagine fairly realistic.

[QwertyMIDX]

You'll have to lobby CA for that one, not us.

[Inepticus]

A typical pre-marian army should consist of equal numbers of Hastati and Principi, with half as many Triariai, so something like

4 Hastata
4 Principi
2 Triariai

Add 2 Velites next.

Then add to that a general's unit and one other unit of cavalry only, anything will do.

Then the rest of the stack (assuming the army is a full stack army) should be made up of allies only, ie Italians for example. Historically these armies were at best 50% Roman.

Under no circumstances should an army be totally made up of Romans, unless of course one is symbolising a double legion with no supporting troops, which kind of defeats the realism aspect of the composition.

[QwertyMIDX]

Unfortunatly most of the italian troops aren't in the game yet. It is also good to remember that a lot of them fought in the roman manner, especially as time goes on.

[cunctator]

I think you are correct for the cavarly part, that most Roman cavarly were mercenaries from north. I just find it too "hard" to run one hero to north( rebel terrain in beginning of the game), recruiting all cavarly, bring em back to southern armies for fighting for sicily,southern part of Italy and some Carthagian cities.
So the Romans used mercenaries from northen Italy and Samnites as "elite" swordsmen and spearmen for their army correct?

I just always tought that before Marian reforms Rome didn't trust so much of their army to mercenaries/auxilaries as they did after reform.

Not at this time, only after they had begun to fight wars across the alps in the late Republic. In a standard army of the middle republic around 1/3 of the cavarly were Roman 2/3s from the Socii, other italian people subdued by Rome, that also provided 50 % of the infantry. Their troops were not mercenaries and had to be enrolled whenever the consuls demanded it from them, and received less pay than citizen troops.

Later we will have some Pre Marian units to represent them.

[econ21]

Anyone know what ratio you should include rorarri, levees, accensi and cavalry to be "historic"? I read from Adrian Goldsworthy's book on Roman generals that the ratio of other troops in a pre-Marian legion was:
2 velites: 2 hastati: 2 principes: 1 triari

Should it be one levee for one hastati or just one for two? (Bearing in mind the different units sizes in EB). How common were rorarri? I read that they were phased out and looking at the stats, I can see why - they don't seem cost-effective, when you can get a much beefer hastati or principes to do the same job much better for roughly the same upkeep. Should I include them just to be authentic?

A current full stack for me would be:

4 levees
4 hastati
4 principes
2 triari
2 accensi
2 equites
1 general

But I suspect I am under-representing the heavy infantry (and rorari).

Also, anyone got any ideas about a plausible scale for RTW armies? How many legions did Rome have in the period? Is it best to think of half a stack as a legion? Or something else?

[SwordsMaster]

Well, my armies tend to be pretty lightweight for Rome too, but it works. Besides, the losses are easier to replace. And I managed to get 8 "roman" units to glod chevrons - the most experienced army I've ever commanded.

So, down to numbers:

1 gen: I only tend to have one "proper" army in the field and, if it is a war of conquest, then another stack of "garrison" troops, but this would be my best (read most promising) general

2 accensi: cheapo llight troops for taking of enemy's skirmishers.
2 Boatroas (northern archers): same job as the accensi, usually a bit more specialised.

3 hastati: with 1 golden chevron each. As I said this is my core army.
4 princies: some with 1 , one with 2 gold chevrons. If they can't do it, its hopeless.
2 triarii: both have 1 golden chevron although I don't use them extensively.

1 equites: 2 golden chevrons too. These guys alone have broken Gaesatae. Which is no small thing.

Then there are usually a couple of units of Lugoas, to do the sapping, push rams, absorb charges, etc. These are recruited for each campaign and are not a part of the standing army.

1 Leuce Epos: Well... they are not fantastic but come handy from time to time, and they are usually so massacred after a campaign I just disband them.

The last 3 units depend on who am I fighting. For instance, after I conquered Sicily I tend to fill them with Lybian infantry as they are pretty solid troops good for supporting my infantry and storming walls even. Usually though, for my northern campaigns I use heavy barbarian ingantry, with pretty much the same purpose, storming walls, charging the flanks, etc.

I reckon I probably got close to that 50% ratio for Roman-non roman units... Whaddaya think?

[Sdragon]

Rorari aren’t bad troops. You have to take into account that they have a heck of a lot more man in the units that Hastati. I use them as reserves, as long as you don’t throw them up against something nasty they will hold. Plus when on campaign they make good garrison troops due to their number of a cheap cost, plus if an attack does come they can hold their own.

I normally have 1 Rorari for each Hastati and I keep the regular troops numbers historic. Although after a few towns the Rorari are left to hold towns unless I can make some cheap troops in the town to do the job for them in.

[Spitful]

I havent ahd time to trian up more men yet, im goin got romanize the entire penisular, take 2/3s of scicily and then il think about my armies, maybe someon should write an article about historical armies in all of the periods,

and this is a bit off-topic, but in a late republican army, how many of those lighter leigonaries should you have in a legion compared to regular legionaries?

[Ragabash]

maybe someon should write an article about historical armies in all of the periods

I agree. I really could use a guide for creating historically realistic armies. I wish that some people who have researched this matter could start a new thread regarding this.

So all of you ancient warfare historics, open those dusty braincells and perhaps book or two to give us some accurate information