Some historical questions

**Wikingus** · 01-02-2006, 23:06

I am doing some research for a possible novel/series of short stories. I'm not intent on getting 100% of things correct, but not making big mistakes would be nice. :P

-it is set in the late 4th century AD
-it is centred mainly around and in Pannonia (may change)

I'm going to add more questions when I think of them, but for now:

-What was the general hierarchy in smaller or medium sized settlements in that era. Who was in charge? What other civil ranks were important?

-Military structure. What was the approx. garrison in such settlements? Who was in charge of the forces? What were their tasks except protection and police duty? Could they be used for actions outside their towns? Could they be requisitioned by a Roman army? Am I correct in assuming that such local forces would almost completely be composed of "Barbarians" at the time?

-What about the settlements themselves. For a region Romanized a few centuries ago, would I be correct in assuming that the population would be something like 40% Romans, 60% original inhabitants?

-Could a person be enlisted in the Roman army against his will? E.g. in times of crisis. What kind of unit would such a person fight in, and roughly how much training would he receive?

Very sleepy, so some of the questions may sound a bit odd, just ask if something is unclear. ;)

Salvete,

**matteus the inbred** · 01-03-2006, 16:13

salve frater

that sounds very interesting!
what was the general region called at that time? obviously Pannonia, but any (perhaps more widely known/Roman contemporary, eg. Dacia?) other names that might help? i have a set of army lists from a historical research group that might have useful info on auxiliaries and things, if i know which army to look for, as any garrison troops in the area in the late 4th century would probably have been frontier auxiliaries or limitani, something similar.
aha, just had a look at Wikipedia and Illyricum and Dacia would be the right area, i think. if you haven't checked this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonia) it's probably useful. good choice, the period shortly before it was ceded to the Huns, a time of change!

can't specifically help with any other bits i don't think; slaves could be and were enlisted by the Romans during the 2nd century BC (2nd Punic War) but not again so far as i know, service for citizens was of course voluntary. try looking for the Osprey series of books on the military side though, they're usually the best. i'll get back to you about the army lists, which have general stuff on the Romans too...

ave atque vale

**Wikingus** · 01-03-2006, 17:45

Hi, first of all, thank you for your answers!

Most of my classical knowledge is based on the earlier period of Roman history, and I've been doing some reading on the subject lately, and was actually quite surprised at how the borders of the administrative regions changed in time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_p...nces_in_120_AD

The image https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Prefecture.png from the time that I am working with, is quite different. The area that I wish to cover would be split between the Prefecture of Italy and North-Western Illyricum.

Sometimes I find the late Roman Empire so confusing...

**matteus the inbred** · 01-03-2006, 17:52

yeah, i did that period (vaguely) at uni! it's there, it's gone, it's Gaulish, it's Roman again, now it's eastern and western...gahhh. i <think> the period you're looking at is during the period when the western emperors were puppets and the power resided in the hands of a general, hence the instability, internal and external. a lot of use was made of 'barbarian' troops and all sorts of odd stuff imported from asia minor...i'll get back to you with hard information tomorrow instead of guessing from memory today!

**Wikingus** · 01-03-2006, 17:56

Excellent!

**matteus the inbred** · 01-04-2006, 19:15

right, here we go. bit disappointing i'm afraid, no specific list for Illyria or Pannonnia, but lots of almost entirely military bits.
My first recommendation (apologies if you have already thought of this as you appear to know some Latin and Roman history) is to get hold of copies of -
Vegetius' 'De Re Militari' (or Epitoma rei militaris); a historian writing in the late 4th century possibly during Theodosius' reign on many topics including the military. very widely known, popularly held to be the basis of most medieval military wisdom, i'm sure you'll have heard of it. copies exist online, check the Wikipedia page for details.

The 'Notitia Dignitatum' is a Roman chancery document up-to-date for about 420AD and contains among the admin detail a list of all the major civil and military dignities (ie offices) including provincials and sometimes even all their senior staff. also give details of shield emblems and military organisational type stuff, and may even tell you which Roman units were stationed in Pannonia.

sources out of the way, here's what i could dig out from the army lists. Dacia has it's own list as follows
Dacians were aggressive raiders and mainly hill and forest tribes, however, they were subdued by and annexed by Trajan by 106AD, although remnant tribes called the Carpi and Carpodacae continued to plague Roman frontiers until around 380AD. they mainly fought like other Germanic tribes in warband shields and spears/javelins type fashion, but also employed javelinmen, skirmishing archers and some cavalry types, rarely as more than about a fifth of their whole force though. their most interesting military feature was the falx, a huge curved blade on a long haft swung two-handed and capable of cutting a man in half, which made quite an impression on Roman observers.
it would be quite feasible to have many eastern mercenary types (Huns, Franks etc) running around in Illyria at this period as it was on the fringe of most migrations west and was even defended by a relic mercenary Roman army under Odovacar in 487AD.
The late Imperial Roman army itself included units specifically called Equites Illyricani, who seem to have been light horse types with javelins and no armour. the army was still based around legionaries optimised for fighting barbarians and cavalry, using longer swords than the gladius, and throwing lighter javelins than pila, also lead weighted throwing darts of similar range to light bows. 10 cohort legions were replaced by smaller 1,200 man units based around the old vexillations (sub-units) of the frontier legions, and would get smaller as time went on. the overall strategy was to field elite regional armies heavily supported by auxiliaries, now called auxilia palatina units, and cavalry vexillations (units). auxilia palatina were similarly armed to the legions with big oval shields, but probably unarmoured whereas the legionaries wore chainmail corselets (long shirts). all foot units probably had supporting archers.
basic field armies had these regular 'palatina' units supported by less well-trained and maintained 'comitatensis' units, and in emergencies by the really dodgy 'pseudocomitatensis' infantry! Roman armies now also fielded some catafractarii and clibanarii (like Kataphracts in MTW). the Romans by 425AD were beginning to field 'foederati', essentially native auxilia units fighting under their own leaders and probably in native styles rather than as trained auxilia. you should definitely check the web pages on the Battle of Frigidus in 394AD as it occurred in Illyria (no doubt you know about it!)

hope this is all useful, if you want more info or clarification on anything do not hesitate to ask!
ave

**Wikingus** · 01-04-2006, 23:01

Wonderful! This is of great help to me indeed.

And the battle of Frigidus I do know, I intend to give it a big, but not central role.

P.S.
For anyone lurking around, the first questions still stand, so if you know the answers to any, feel free to answer! :P

**matteus the inbred** · 01-05-2006, 09:23

i believe the traditional response to cheers on these forums usually goes like this!

it occurred to me that your questions about garrison size/garrison life on the frontiers and so forth might be answered by checking for archaeological resources on Roman frontier forts like Housesteads in Britain or various ones in southern Germany, see http://www.limesstrasse.de/orte_englisch.htm for details.

you could also check web resources on the battle of Adrianople in 378AD, as quite a lot of information exists on the Roman order of battle and equipment etc. plus of course it was a crucial event in western Roman history.
bona fortuna!

**SIGNIFER,LEGIOVIICLAUDIA** · 01-06-2006, 22:25

Salvete amici!
Χαιρετε φιλοι!

Wikingus,
Being interested in the history of the Illyrians during the Roman times ,I suggest that you read the book of professor John Wilkes-the Illyrians.It is an excellent book where you can grasp the 'atmosphere' for your novel.There is also some great work done by archeologists like Moksy and Alfoldy.

The Pannonians were included in the group of people called illyrians by the Greeks(however there were numerous tribes extending from what is now Albania to Slovenia and Hungary and they did not had some kind of political union).
They came into contact with the Romans since around 200 B.C but they were subdued to Rome at the time of Augustus and Tiberius(referring to the Panonians).There were many legions stationed in their regions(one of them was LegioVII claudia stationed in Scupi which was a roman colony) and many Illyrians followed an army carreer,either at first as auxiliaries and later their offsprings as legionarries.
The culture of the provinces was mainly provincial Roman,most of the Illyrians spoke Latin,they worshipped Silvanus,a Roman deity, and Diana(it fits to their warlike nature).Most of the people who did not live in towns and cities,were shepherds and farmers.Many worked in the numerous mines that were in the region.But the majority of the Romano-Illyrians or Illyrio-romans were professional soldiers.After the reign of Severus,the praetorians in Rome were Pannonians or Illyrians(10.000 men).
There were also many emperors being born in Illyrian provinces or being of Ilyrian origin like Constantine,Julianus and many many other.