Religious bigot or oppressed minority?

[Goofball]

We are all sinners, whether it be a murderer or someone who might tell a little lie. Instead of attacking homosexuals for what they do, why not show them love and compassion like God intended? That's what I've rededicated myself to this Holiday because Jesus would hold the homosexual just as close to his bussom as he would hold me. God bless you all.

Holy crap.

I go and make an anti-Christian post and here comes a Christian talking some sense.

Dave I agree entirely with everything you said there, and if all Christians actually practiced the views you just talked about, guys like me would have nothing to attack them about because there would be no hypocricy there anymore.

Well done Dave.

(Unless you are just taking the piss out of all of us with this "Kinder, Gentler Dave" routine, in which case I would invite you to take a flying **** at a rolling donut...)

[Byzantine Prince]

Instead of attacking homosexuals for what they do, why not show them love and compassion like God intended? That's what I've rededicated myself to this Holiday because Jesus would hold the homosexual just as close to his bussom as he would hold me. God bless you all.

Oh really?
Try readin some Leviticus and some St.Paul, and then tell me again how the stance of the church doctrine really is. There are liberal priests that will probably tell you otherwise, but the facts are in the "Good Book". Need I remind you that in order to be a good christian you are supposed to kill homosexuals?


BTW, mods there is evidence for this in Leviticus, so don't take it as a flame.

Here's some gems:
Leviticus 20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death

Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones

There is tons more where that came from

[Tribesman]

There is tons more where that came from
Have you been visiting Pat Robertsons or Jerry Falwells sites by any chance BP ?

[Papewaio]

To square the circle... to find a square with equal area of a circle.

For mockers it is considered to be an expression of attempting the impossible. This dates back to the earliest attempts at finding the solution to the problem.

For thinkers the term is considered in general to be a hard puzzle that may or may not be solvable. Much mathematical progress was made by those who tried to solve the problem of squaring the circle, and their attitudes to attempt to solve the problem sum up the best in philosophy and science.

The world has progressed due to the thinkers while the mockers still grind their teeth at change and call every new thing attempted To square the circle. To be such a mocker is to belong to the flat earth, man will never fly, space travel is impossible brigade.

It is interesting to note the people who were interested in the attempt to solve the squaring of the circle:

Ahmes
Hippocrates
Aristotle
Archimedes
al-Haytham
Leonardo
Johann Bernoulli (one of the few scientists known by his first and last name, as he belonged to such an extensive family of scholars)
Ramanujan (Interesting story behind this guy, absolutely amazing)

[Watchman]

Hey, I've wathced a panel discussion where a Jehova's Witness came across as more tolerant about homosexuals than the representative of our national, severely secularized Evengelic Lutheran church (which is pretty laid-back usually; one high-ranker caused quite a stir with a book titled Everyone Goes To Heaven some time ago...). It takes all kinds.

The funny thing about the Scriptures and the words of Truth therein is, IMHO, that it very much seems that with enough creative (and selective) reading and interpretation you can find just about any truth and theological justification therein. And that's not just the acutely schizophrenic ones like the New Testament either...

I think I lost what very little faith I ever had in Ultimate Truths when it dawned to me they were all artifacts. Ultimately the Word of God is as the believer reads it, or rather wants to read it. Basta.

[Redleg]

Need I remind you that in order to be a good christian you are supposed to kill homosexuals?

Wrong on so many accounts - for one Jesus did not state that in order to follow him I must kill a homosexual. Quote the chapter and verse of the New Testiment that states to be a follower of Jesus Christ one must kill a homosexual.

BTW, mods there is evidence for this in Leviticus, so don't take it as a flame.

Here's some gems:
Leviticus 20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death

Psalm 137:9
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones


There is tons more where that came from

All of that is Old Testiment - now find the chapter and verse in the New Testiment that states to be a good Christian one must kill a homosexual.

There is more Bigotary being displayed in your post here then what was stated by Sacranie in his comments when asked.

[Watchman]

So, uh, I'm not a Christian (never been baptized either, for that matter), and I spent every occasion involving said faith in school preoccupied with active resentement, so I don't really know about these things... but isn't the Old Testament a fairly central text of the faith too ? Mind you, I personally prefer the "hippie love" approach of Jesus (who IMHO had a lot of good ideas) to the blood-and-guts wrathfulness of the Old Testament, but then again I never really comprehended how the two are supposed to fit together. It just doesn't quite sound like the same God, you know ?

Mind you, although I haven't exactly delved deep on the subject, it is my understanding that the New Testament is seriously internally inconsistent in many questions - but then again given how many peoples' writings got put into it that ought not to be a great surprise.

One day a religious loon pushing pmphlets on the street told me the Bible was written by Jesus, though. I must be an extremely kind and considerate person, for I did not laugh my lungs out on the spot...

[Redleg]

So, uh, I'm not a Christian (never been baptized either, for that matter), and I spent every occasion involving said faith in school preoccupied with active resentement, so I don't really know about these things... but isn't the Old Testament a fairly central text of the faith too ? Mind you, I personally prefer the "hippie love" approach of Jesus (who IMHO had a lot of good ideas) to the blood-and-guts wrathfulness of the Old Testament, but then again I never really comprehended how the two are supposed to fit together. It just doesn't quite sound like the same God, you know ?

Depends on the faith of the individual. The New Testiment is the main tenent of the Christian Faith. Claiming that to be a Christian one must kill homosexuals is not in line with the teachings of the Christian Faith. Its an arguement based upon the Old Testiment - which some of the more extremist groups like to spout, but does not fall in line with what is stated in the New Testiment. To be a Christian one must follow the New Testiment.

Mind you, although I haven't exactly delved deep on the subject, it is my understanding that the New Testament is seriously internally inconsistent in many questions - but then again given how many peoples' writings got put into it that ought not to be a great surprise.

Yes indeed the new testiment as a written text has some fundmental flaws in its lessons and arguements. Multiple writers over several centuries with multiple re-writes to fit the politics of the age have something to do with the inconsistent messages in the New Testiment. That is why there are so many different viewpoints on what makes a person a Christian. Well all but one point - that one accepts Jesus as his personal savior that is pretty consistent with all Christian Religions.

One day a religious loon pushing pmphlets on the street told me the Bible was written by Jesus, though. I must be an extremely kind and considerate person, for I did not laugh my lungs out on the spot...

Well that is better then many people do.

[Slyspy]

Wrong on so many accounts - for one Jesus did not state that in order to follow him I must kill a homosexual. Quote the chapter and verse of the New Testiment that states to be a follower of Jesus Christ one must kill a homosexual.



All of that is Old Testiment - now find the chapter and verse in the New Testiment that states to be a good Christian one must kill a homosexual.

There is more Bigotary being displayed in your post here then what was stated by Sacranie in his comments when asked.

Quite so Redleg. In fact I cannot even see the relevance of those quotations.

The Muslim Council is forever tying itself in knots trying to be the modern face of British Islam while at the same time maintaining its standing in eyes of the more fundalmentalist Muslims. Given that some members lean more to the latter way of thinking this poses some interesting political problems.

[Watchman]

I just hope they can get through their particular version of the Reformation without the century of bloodbaths and religious wars, nevermind all the hardline fundamentalism developing on both sides, that Christians managed to whip up...
*looks at the news*
...
...yeah, well, they seem to be off on a pretty good start actually. But at least it's more like Muslim reactionaries butting heads with Christian reactionaries and everyone else just getting caught in the blast radius, which I guess is a bit of an improvement.

[Tribesman]

To be a Christian one must follow the New Testiment.

Does that mean that to be a Christian one must reject the old testament , or only reject those parts that contradict the new one ?

But then ...
indeed the new testiment as a written text has some fundmental flaws in its lessons and arguements.
So reject the book altogether then ?

So it boils down to.....
that one accepts Jesus as his personal savior
Christianity made simple .

[Byzantine Prince]

Wrong on so many accounts - for one Jesus did not state that in order to follow him I must kill a homosexual. Quote the chapter and verse of the New Testiment that states to be a follower of Jesus Christ one must kill a homosexual.

All of that is Old Testiment - now find the chapter and verse in the New Testiment that states to be a good Christian one must kill a homosexual.

I see no reason to go through the New Testament to find such a quote because in order to be Christian you must accept both Old and New Testaments. What is important is that both these compilations are full of incosistences not only with eachother but also within themselves, and also within the books of the same authors.

There is more Bigotary being displayed in your post here then what was stated by Sacranie in his comments when asked.

Thank you.

[Watchman]

IMHO so long a person has developed an agreeable, wholesome set of morals ("live and let live" is a good starting point in my books) it's quite the same if he cites a burning shrubbery as their origin.

Well, I might smirk a little when he's not looking...

[Redleg]

I see no reason to go through the New Testament to find such a quote because in order to be Christian you must accept both Old and New Testaments.

Then you don't know much about being a Christian.

[Byzantine Prince]

I beg your pardon Redleg, I don't know about being in every type of christian community, after all I only belonged to the ORIGINAL one. In case you didn't know that the Greek Orthodox Church. In order to be a part of the Catholic or orthodox church, which used to be one at the beggining, you must accept both testaments.

[Redleg]

I beg your pardon Redleg, I don't know about being in every type of christian community, after all I only belonged to the ORIGINAL one. In case you didn't know that the Greek Orthodox Church. In order to be a part of the Catholic or orthodox church, which used to be one at the beggining, you must accept both testaments.

And there in lies your problem - your basing your opinion on a segment not the whole picture. By the way the Greek Orthodox Church is not the orginial church either. You might want to read the passages in the New Testiment that speak of the orginial church of Christ.

Jesus would have a problem with many of the organized churches who attempt to spread his message.

[Watchman]

...after all I only belonged to the ORIGINAL one. In case you didn't know that the Greek Orthodox Church.

R-i-i-i-ght. Here's my other leg, want to pull that one too ?

I know enough about the early history of Christianity to know the claims of either of the "big two" lines of 'originality' are about as valid as a baboon telling a chimpanzee he's the more original primate... And with about as much point.

[Redleg]

Oh look lets see how many times Church is mentioned in the New Testiment.

Mat16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

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Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

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Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

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Act 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

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Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

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Act 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

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Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed [them] to prison.

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Act 11:22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.

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Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

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Act 12:1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth [his] hands to vex certain of the church.

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Act 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

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Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

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Act 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

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Act 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

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Act 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

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Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

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Act 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

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Act 18:22 And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up, and saluted the church, he went down to Antioch.

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Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

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Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

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Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

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Rom 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

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Rom 16:23 Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother.

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Rom 16:27 To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. [[[Written to the Romans from Corinthus, [and sent] by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.]]]

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1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:


And there is three more pages in a simple search using the word church at this site.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...6040-8203.html

If you haven't figured it out BP I don't belong to the Catholic Church either.

[bmolsson]

Regardless religion, he is a religious bigot.....

[Watchman]

I don't think you need a religion to be a bigot, actually. But The Faith tends to make a neat blunt instrument to those who combine the two.

[Redleg]

As the public figure and speaker for his religion in the country of England - he must provide statements that are in line with his religion.

His downfall in this issue was that he attempted to use a secular arguement along with his religous one.

But nevertheless - if the people of England voted in the law for Civil Union the will of the people shows that they are willing to accept it, which is what democracy is all about.

However we can not stomp on his right to speech to voice his dissatifcation and the group he represents consensus because we find it not pleasant for us to hear dis-stafication with the current governmental policy.

Careful on labeling others a bigot least you fall into the trap your calling them.

[Watchman]

The "intolerance of intolerance" line of argument was always way too loopy for my tastes.

[Papewaio]

I like the 'bigot of bigot' idea myself...

[Devastatin Dave]

Jesus still loves you BP and so do I my friend. Judge not lest ye be judged my Brother and I will try to do the same.

[Ja'chyra]

But nevertheless - if the people of England voted in the law for Civil Union the will of the people shows that they are willing to accept it, which is what democracy is all about.

However we can not stomp on his right to speech to voice his dissatifcation and the group he represents consensus because we find it not pleasant for us to hear dis-stafication with the current governmental policy.

Careful on labeling others a bigot least you fall into the trap your calling them.

Ah but that's the thing isn't it? You never actually get to vote on this kind of thing, it's all just rolled into a parties policies and you have to choose the one with the least amount of un-appealing policies.

I do agree with your last point though, I did try to say it earlier, everyone is entitled to their opinions and as it stands all he did was give his opinions WHEN ASKED, he's not persecuting anyone.

So, if you call someone a bigot for stating their views does that make you a bigot? Or just intolerant of others?

[Redleg]

Ah but that's the thing isn't it? You never actually get to vote on this kind of thing, it's all just rolled into a parties policies and you have to choose the one with the least amount of un-appealing policies.

Unfortunately sometimes that is how it works, and the converse is true also, fortunely sometimes that is how it works. In our representive democracies we the voter only can impact the government by who we vote into office.

As for me - I don't have a problem with voting in an individual into office that supports same-sex civil unions, if a majority of his other stated policy goals are within my own expectations of a elected representive.

I do agree with your last point though, I did try to say it earlier, everyone is entitled to their opinions and as it stands all he did was give his opinions WHEN ASKED, he's not persecuting anyone.

So, if you call someone a bigot for stating their views does that make you a bigot? Or just intolerant of others?

Depends on your outlook I would image.

[bmolsson]

Sometimes it seems like the really religious people are a bit afraid of what God thinks about them. What Dave here says changes this and he assumes that God is good so therefore he should be good as well.
With a closer thought, this would be one of the major problems in Islam. Many muslims are actually afraid of God and what he thinks of them. This is used to "convice" them in to nutty tasks like jihad and hate.

It would be interesting to have a beer or two with God and actually get his point of view on the subject.....

[Reenk Roink]

Sometimes it seems like the really religious people are a bit afraid of what God thinks about them. What Dave here says changes this and he assumes that God is good so therefore he should be good as well.
With a closer thought, this would be one of the major problems in Islam. Many muslims are actually afraid of God and what he thinks of them. This is used to "convice" them in to nutty tasks like jihad and hate.

It would be interesting to have a beer or two with God and actually get his point of view on the subject.....

I suppose this is why to Muslims, God attributes to himself that he is most Gracious/Compassionate/Benevolent/Merciful/Kind/Loving...you name your word of choice for translation...

I also suppose this is why Muslims think of him like this when they do things "in the name of God"

My sister converted to Islam for two reasons:

1) She was absolutely conviced of the existence of God, and she could never rationalize any doubt, though she did try...

2) She was deeply moved by the love of God.

And by the way, my sister suscribes to a particularly traditional view of Sunni Islam as well, and is studying it in Amman, but whenever she calls me, she always speaks of the sweet love and mercy of God...

But she's not like the "many muslims" right?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

I'd imagine that Mr B.M. "I'm a Muslim in a mostly Muslim part of the world" Olsson would have a good grasp of how many Muslims feel.

Just to stick my nose in where iot doesn't belong.

[Soulforged]

Another day, another idiot to fill the papers, while there's lot of people doing real work and improving this harsh world. I wonder if in the first world there's also news with titles like "The New Panda has born in the Zoo".

At any rate...I'll remain with the unanimous opinion that HE REALLY DID HIS WORK, he's just a product of religious doctrine. Take an average christian (regarding study of the doctrine) and you'll see a balanced man, a man who has not penetrated enough in the teachings of the One. But now take the learned Christian (or Muslim or whatever), he who puts his face in the Old Book every day and every night, the mental unbalance in such a subject will be notorious, as anyone who studies one book for the rest of their lives (wheter it's "Il Principi" or "Thus spoke Zaratrusta").

So I think that the best way to describe this man is as follows: not a bigot, but an honorable man who remains in his faith at the expense of his reason.