Catholic Church get's sued over existence of Christ

[Byzantine Prince]

In Italy they can sue the church for their millenia old con over people. That is the coolest thing I've seen in a while.
This is awesome!

link CNN - link

I wonder if I get any reparations for being deceaved when I was small.

[Watchman]

Heh, that's kinda funny. There's a sort of surreal Monty Python feel to it. Although I can understand why that old priest might be a little frustrated...

Gotta hand it to that Gascioli fellow, though - I'm pretty sure most people of that age don't go and do something as radical. Heck, most of the people half my age don't, despite all the talk.

'obscurantism'. gotta remember that one.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

This is a nation that is about 88% Catholic. Take 2 guesses who's going to win, or Forza Italia's out.

[Ronin]

HAHAHAHAHA....great!

even just as a gag it´s well worth the effort ...


that reminds me.....


I was baptized against my will..... .....I demand restitution dammit!...can anyone inform me of the current value of a pagan soul?.....those bastards are gonna pay and pay big!!!....*runs to the nearest court house*

[Strike For The South]

I never thought it was a question of whether he existed or not. Isnt he in Roman redords as being crucified?

[Xiahou]

Here is a case for the defense.

Honestly, this lawsuit is utterly ridiculous. There is no way that the prosecution will be able to establish the non-existence of Jesus. It makes me wonder why the judge hasn't dismissed this nonsense already.

[Watchman]

He probably needs to go through a fair few formalities first, especially as the old codger pulls appeals. Heck, the old bugger himself thinks his odds to win are about zilch.

I did say it was surreal, didn't I ?

On the other hand, assuming that Gascioli character isn't a real loon, hasn't gone senile or just decided to have a bit of a laugh at his countrymens' expense (everyone needs a hobby...) odds are he's really just making a polemical statement in the guise of a court case.

I can see why the whole thing would bug the living daylights out of the poor judge too, though.

[Byzantine Prince]

Regardless of what the outcome is he can be like the Rosa Parks for us atheists. By attacking the Catholic church so openly he has opened a pandora's box that will only escalate as later generations become increasingly aware of the truth.

[Watchman]

...no, I still can't tell if that statement was serious or not.

[Xiahou]

Regardless of what the outcome is he can be like the Rosa Parks for us atheists. By attacking the Catholic church so openly he has opened a pandora's box that will only escalate as later generations become increasingly aware of the truth.

Rosa Parks for atheists? What are you smoking?

[Strike For The South]

Regardless of what the outcome is he can be like the Rosa Parks for us atheists. By attacking the Catholic church so openly he has opened a pandora's box that will only escalate as later generations become increasingly aware of the truth.

I see......

[Crazed Rabbit]

Here is a case for the defense.

Honestly, this lawsuit is utterly ridiculous. There is no way that the prosecution will be able to establish the non-existence of Jesus. It makes me wonder why the judge hasn't dismissed this nonsense already.

He has tried, apparently;

The judge presiding over the hearing has tried, repeatedly, to dismiss the case -- prompting appeals from Cascioli.

Crazed Rabbit

[GoreBag]

Awesome. That's the silliest thing I've heard all day.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Is this where I'm supposed to flame BP for attacking christianity?

Just want to make sure I get though the hoop like a good doggie.

[InsaneApache]

I never thought it was a question of whether he existed or not. Isnt he in Roman redords as being crucified?

IIRC No. No record that Pontius Pilate existed. No record of a census. How peculiar.

[Scurvy]

I always thought it was pretty certain that Jesus did exist as a religous leader of the christian faith, however the miracles/actions he performed were questionable, not his existance itself?

extremely funny though,

[Geoffrey S]

Can any form of law or jurisdiction in Italy be taken seriously?

I always thought it was pretty certain that Jesus did exist as a religous leader of the christian faith, however the miracles/actions he performed were questionable, not his existance itself?

Reminds me to read Behold The Man by Michael Moorcock again. Classic.

[Ser Clegane]

"In my book, 'The Fable of Christ,' I present proof Jesus did not exist as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of Christ's existence," Cascioli said.

So now the time of courts is wasted for this kind of discussions?

I guess Italian taxpayers are really glad that they have to pay to promote Cascioli's book...

[Xiahou]

IIRC No. No record that Pontius Pilate existed. No record of a census. How peculiar.

Read my link, it would contradict that statement. Also, for further reading, you can refer to the citations list at the bottom of the article.

[Red Peasant]

I never thought it was a question of whether he existed or not. Isnt he in Roman redords as being crucified?

There is no reliable, independent evidence for JC's existence, certainly no official Roman records.
Pontius Pilate did exist, and he is a ruthless and rapacious procurator of Judaea in Josephus, not the kindly person of the NT. If the execution of a JC did happen, then crucifixion was the Roman punishment for JC's crimes (for insurrection - claiming he was the annointed one i.e. Christ/Messiah, the king of the Jews), and Pilate would certainly have punished him like this with no hesitation. The Jewish punishment was stoning for such blasephemy, yet they were blamed.
There was no census as stated in the New Testament.
The 'gospels' were anonymous documents written long after JC supposedly died. The names were added much later.
The earliest records accepted by scholars are the first few letters of Paul which make no mention of a living JC, the 'Christ' being treated symbolically. Most of his later letters are forgeries, probably of C2 AD to combat heresy and gnostic ideas. This makes them internally contradictory as a body of evidence because the earlier letters are clearly influenced by gnosticism.

You really need faith to be a Christian, so the core moral message of the NT (whatever that is, as it can be contradictory) should be a Christian's guide, not the unreliable fairy tales it contains.

[R'as al Ghul]

Hilarious!
Two questions:
1. Is the Vatican, as an autonomous state, subject to Italian Law?
2. Do you think after the judge's ruling the case will be settled once and for all?

[Ser Clegane]

2. Do you think after the judge's ruling the case will be settled once and for all?

If he decides in favour of Cascioli, somebody will probably drop by to officially confiscate our Bible... but perhaps we can keep it if we blacken all references to "Jesus"

[SwordsMaster]

I thought that was really funny. Whatever the judge decides it is going to be funny just reading the case.

[R'as al Ghul]

If he decides in favour of Cascioli, somebody will probably drop by to officially confiscate our Bible... but perhaps we can keep it if we blacken all references to "Jesus"

With all that black the New Testament would look like a CIA document.
But seriously, what's the Vatican's position on this?
A civil judge judging a transcendental matter? This is absurd.
Who gives him authority to judge about this dispute?

[Zalmoxis]

It makes you wonder, what happened to the romans that made them stupid.

[Xiahou]

There is no reliable, independent evidence for JC's existence, certainly no official Roman records.
Pontius Pilate did exist, and he is a ruthless and rapacious procurator of Judaea in Josephus, not the kindly person of the NT. If the execution of a JC did happen, then crucifixion was the Roman punishment for JC's crimes (for insurrection - claiming he was the annointed one i.e. Christ/Messiah, the king of the Jews), and Pilate would certainly have punished him like this with no hesitation. The Jewish punishment was stoning for such blasephemy, yet they were blamed.
There was no census as stated in the New Testament.
The 'gospels' were anonymous documents written long after JC supposedly died. The names were added much later.
The earliest records accepted by scholars are the first few letters of Paul which make no mention of a living JC, the 'Christ' being treated symbolically. Most of his later letters are forgeries, probably of C2 AD to combat heresy and gnostic ideas. This makes them internally contradictory as a body of evidence because the earlier letters are clearly influenced by gnosticism.

You really need faith to be a Christian, so the core moral message of the NT (whatever that is, as it can be contradictory) should be a Christian's guide, not the unreliable fairy tales it contains.

The bible was no exception in being largely written several hundred years after the fact- many historical documents that are accepted as fact were written the same way. If you wish to dismiss the NT for the same reason, you're also dismissing much of what's known about ancient historical figures. Further, Jesus was mentioned in the works of the Jewish historian Josephus. It's rather hypocritical of some modern "enlightened historians" to try and assert that Jesus didn't exist because of a supposed lack of evidence- this has more to do with the anti-Christian bias that's so fashionable now days rather than intellectual honesty.

One of the major problems with the legend hypothesis, however, which is almost never addressed by sceptical critics, is that the time between Jesus’s death and the writing of the gospels is just too short for this to happen. This point has been well-explained by A. N. Sherwin-White in his book Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament.{2} Professor Sherwin-White is not a theologian; he is a professional historian of times prior to and contemporaneous with Jesus. According to Sherwin-White, the sources for Roman and Greek history are usually biased and removed one or two generations or even centuries from the events they record. Yet, he says, historians reconstruct with confidence the course of Roman and Greek history. For example, the two earliest biographies of Alexander the Great were written by Arrian and Plutarch more than 400 years after Alexander’s death, and yet classical historians still consider them to be trustworthy. The fabulous legends about Alexander the Great did not develop until during the centuries after these two writers. According to Sherwin-White, the writings of Herodotus enable us to determine the rate at which legend accumulates, and the tests show that even two generations is too short a time span to allow legendary tendencies to wipe out the hard core of historical facts. When Professor Sherwin-White turns to the gospels, he states that for the gospels to be legends, the rate of legendary accumulation would have to be "unbelievable." More generations would be needed.

[BDC]

Even Cascioli admits that the odds are against him, especially in Roman Catholic Italy.

"It would take a miracle to win," he joked.

Hehe. Best line I have seen in a news story recently.

[Red Peasant]

The bible was no exception in being largely written several hundred years after the fact- many historical documents that are accepted as fact were written the same way. If you wish to dismiss the NT for the same reason, you're also dismissing much of what's known about ancient historical figures. Further, Jesus was mentioned in the works of the Jewish historian Josephus. It's rather hypocritical of some modern "enlightened historians" to try and assert that Jesus didn't exist because of a supposed lack of evidence- this has more to do with the anti-Christian bias that's so fashionable now days rather than intellectual honesty.

I don't want to go into this at length, but one point may serve. The blatant Jesus reference in Josephus is widely accepted as an interpolation ... by Christians. Let's face it, for over 2000 years the Church/Christianity has a long and shoddy record of this kind of thing: forgeries, downright lies, etc. I don't trust any of it. You can if you want to, good on ya.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Not even a single link or even book title.

Trust some random (though senior patron) person on an internet forum?

[Redleg]

I don't want to go into this at length, but one point may serve. The blatant Jesus reference in Josephus is widely accepted as an interpolation ... by Christians. Let's face it, for over 2000 years the Church/Christianity has a long and shoddy record of this kind of thing: forgeries, downright lies, etc. I don't trust any of it. You can if you want to, good on ya.

True or untrue - early Christians were fodder in the Roman Games for the amusement of the Romans.


http://abacus.bates.edu/~mimber/Rciv/christianity.htm


http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/xtians.html