damn pope

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The Pope, not surprisingly, is usually in Rome, or the Papal States. He has standard Catholic Royal Knights.

[phred]

Okay, where do I actually find the Pope? I know he lurks somewhere in the Papal states, but how does MTW represent him? Is he represented like an emperor and positioned with his own military unit, just like any other nation's leader would be? Also, would you happen to know what the average life expectancy of the Pope is in MTW? I'm considering launching an all out offensive against one of my Catholic adversaries (the Germans and Spanish look like they're getting too big for their britches), but need some estimate as to how long it will be before the old codger croaks and I'm no longer ex-commed.

(I apologize for the stupid questions here, but this is the first time I've ever played as a Catholic faction and the first time I've ever had to deal with the Pope.)

The pope can only track one excommuncation notice at a time, so if you attack a minor faction (Aragon, for instance) until you get the excommunication warning, then you can go all out against a major faction and the pope won't bother you at all.

[ajaxfetish]

Yes the pope is part of a normal Catholic Royal bodyguard. He'll usually be close to Rome, and if you haven't got the latest patch he'll die right at 56 just like any other ruler. That's probably a pretty good estimate regardless, though.

Ajax

[gunslinger]

great advice on the campaign, marquis. That is very similar to what I'm doing now in my English Campaign. Only difference: after letting them fight the elmos for awhile, I knocked the Spanish out. Now I have all of the Iberian penninsula except Granada. (not taking Granada from the Elmos leaves me with only one front line on the Iberian since I own the seas). Letting the Elmos slug it out with the Spanish for so long has really weakened them, and since they are now shut out of the Iberian, they are now a fairly minor faction.

Lanemerkel, if you haven't taken Flanders yet then I would highly recommend it. Flanders is super rich. I'm getting something like 4,000 a turn from it right now. Also, as the English I bribed the Swedish rebels early on. Sweden is pretty rich and has Iron.

Good luck!

[Weebeast]

Warnings only affect catholic nations, as far as the pope´s concerned you can make war on as many infidels (that includes the orthodox, too) as you wish, he won´t mind.

It's a little bit different for your crusade agenda though. One time I planned to crusade against the Novgorod (strong orthodox at the time) but that senile man didn't let me.


I guess I can share a little tip. If you're not interested to be a 'good catholic' (fight fellow christians, etc) then you might as well lower the piety in your kingdom. Station inquisitors here and there until the inquisitions run out of control. Excommunication isn't that all scary. Sometimes religious revolts rarely happen. If you're respected enough (maintain alliances) nobody will launch crusade against you even if the Pope begs and cries to every catholic.

[Geezer57]

It's a little bit different for your crusade agenda though. One time I planned to crusade against the Novgorod (strong orthodox at the time) but that senile man didn't let me.

In addition to the other things mentioned, the Pope won't sanction any Crusades against his allies, even if they're not Catholic. That probably explains your no-Novgorod game.

[sbroadbent]

Once you get into the High era (after 1205), the best way to deal with Catholic factions is to train up a legion of Grand Inquisitors and go after the faction leader. I find the normal Inquisitors just don't have any chance of success against even an Atheist Faction leader (sitting in a 100% Zeal province). Once the faction leader dies, find any heirs and burn them as well. Eventually the faction will run out of heirs and they'll go rebel. At that point you can bribe or invade without worry.

This tactic won't work against the HRE (as they elect their leaders), or the Pope.

I was playing as the English and I had to deal with a massive Spanish faction with alot of provinces, a huge mobile spanish army, and heavy naval support. In this case, I ended up eliminating the faction and using my 350K treasury, began to purchase the loyalty of many provinces. Luckily the Byzantines (the only other powerful faction) were devastated by the Spanish, otherwise they would be a problem.

GI's are a great tool to use to take down a faction when you don't want to go to war with them, and that won't also be taken out by annoying border forts.

[Marquis de Said]

GI's are a great tool to use to take down a faction when you don't want to go to war with them, and that won't also be taken out by annoying border forts.

Very true, GI's are super effective, but I do feel that using them to wipe out an entire royal line is a bit of an exploit. I think the game should limit the number of times you can place a king or general under inquisition.

[Mr White]

The pope is represented as a king or emporer and has the same lifespan I think. But if you want to attack another catholic without the pope nagging you about it you should use the thrick mentioned above:
First you attack a catholic faction, get warned by old popy and, withdraw and don't attack them for 10 years then attack the faction you want to attack and the pope won't say a thing.

[caio giulio]

Pope?? No problem!! Use Assassins!!

[Yoyoma1910]

I have some advice for when you attack the German states, if you haven't yet or are in the midst of warring with the HRE.


Go after the Emperor early in you invasions. The HRE is prone to instability. Kill off all heirs (which I find aren't usually that many if at all) and the king, and you'll often see many of the HRE provinces go rebel. That's alot of land. Many times some of their strongest armies go grey, and can create amazing buffer states, with entire armies of strong german warriors for a bargan price if you desire. As the French, I've often for either Burgundy or Provence or both heavilly built up, then turning grey, and either presenting an impenitrable barrier or a grand speed bump to a weakened German state and/or an Italian state insistent on war with me when borders are shared.

This should give you some time to build up and concentrate on other fronts or economic growth within your empire.


Also, you may want to invest in ships and play the frog man, invading muslim provences from across the mediterainian, which will allow you to access rich lands without incuring war automatically with christian factions.

[Lanemerkel1]

great advice on the campaign, marquis. That is very similar to what I'm doing now in my English Campaign. Only difference: after letting them fight the elmos for awhile, I knocked the Spanish out. Now I have all of the Iberian penninsula except Granada. (not taking Granada from the Elmos leaves me with only one front line on the Iberian since I own the seas). Letting the Elmos slug it out with the Spanish for so long has really weakened them, and since they are now shut out of the Iberian, they are now a fairly minor faction.

Lanemerkel, if you haven't taken Flanders yet then I would highly recommend it. Flanders is super rich. I'm getting something like 4,000 a turn from it right now. Also, as the English I bribed the Swedish rebels early on. Sweden is pretty rich and has Iron.

Good luck!

I have already taken Flanders (it was actually the first province I took in retaliation) after taking flanders I really sent a big hit on the french economy, I get enough dough from it to support my entire military, I'm thinking of moving south and then east in my conquest though as when I do that I can take Antioch, Edessa, Palestine, and whatever the other one is and Constantinople without getting excommed again once I take care of the spanish, once that's done I can surround and suppress the Catholics instead of dividng and driving them while facing constant crusades.


By that point I will have the richest provinces on the map except for Genoa so I'd also have the funds to take on the rest of the catholics as well as strategic positions surrounding them and I would take out the two biggest enemies I've ever faced to date right off the bat (Spain and Almohads) once that's done I'll turn my attention to the other Catholics with the Papacy, Italy, Sicily, and what's left of Byzantium (if they made it through Sicilian attacks) in Naples being my last targets, unless the Horde decides to show up before I finish off Catholica, but by that time I'll probably be mopping up the rest of my enemies so I will be free to move my armies to the eastern front.


Sounds like a good plan but things usually don't work out for me.

[Lanemerkel1]

I have some advice for when you attack the German states, if you haven't yet or are in the midst of warring with the HRE.


Go after the Emperor early in you invasions. The HRE is prone to instability. Kill off all heirs (which I find aren't usually that many if at all) and the king, and you'll often see many of the HRE provinces go rebel. That's alot of land. Many times some of their strongest armies go grey, and can create amazing buffer states, with entire armies of strong german warriors for a bargan price if you desire. As the French, I've often for either Burgundy or Provence or both heavilly built up, then turning grey, and either presenting an impenitrable barrier or a grand speed bump to a weakened German state and/or an Italian state insistent on war with me when borders are shared.

This should give you some time to build up and concentrate on other fronts or economic growth within your empire.


Also, you may want to invest in ships and play the frog man, invading muslim provences from across the mediterainian, which will allow you to access rich lands without incuring war automatically with christian factions.

I am usually not the kind of guy to use a Navy, I find they take too long to build the ships, it takes three or four of them per sea to maintain superiority, and there is almost always an obstacle in your way if your trying to ship your men to your target.

I might try and use hordes full of assassins to kill off the HRE family tree to keep them occupied with the new rebels so that I don't get stabbed in the back while I'm off to war in Africa

[Cowhead418]

In my current Portuguese (Hard/Early) campaign I have taken out the Spanish within the first six turns. The very first turn I invaded Leon with all my troops and the Spanish army retreated to the Fort. Next turn they invaded with three Jinettes and some weak infantry (Damn I hate Jinettes! There is nothing more frustrating than seeing hail after hail of javelins cut into your troops! ). After wiping them out and taking Leon for good on turn three I waited two turns and then invaded Castile. The Spanish king retreated without a fight and the faction was eliminated.

I left small garrisons in Portucale and Leon and the Almohads probably would have invaded if I hadn't allied with them on turn three. After taking Castile I bribed El Cid and took Valencia. I now have a nice income and can look to my defenses, tech up and turtle for a little while. Unfortunately the Pope excommed me for taking out the Spanish and is going crazy asking for Crusades against me. My army is shaping up nicely though as I have a 3-star heir, a 4-star king, and two 5-star generals on only the 6th turn of the campaign (GA mode).

[The Darkhorn]

...After wiping them out and taking Leon for good on turn three I waited two turns and then invaded Castile. The Spanish king retreated without a fight and the faction was eliminated...

I'm wondering if there's an XL "no last stand" bug. I've seen that happen twice, when I invaded Sweden and Norway as the Danes.....whole faction gives up and is eliminated without a fight. Does anyone know?

[Ludens]

I'm wondering if there's an XL "no last stand" bug. I've seen that happen twice, when I invaded Sweden and Norway as the Danes.....whole faction gives up and is eliminated without a fight. Does anyone know?

It is certainly not limited to XL. In MedMod 2.14 (essentially M:TW 2.01 plus a few enhancements to boost the A.I.) the Aragonese would regularly retreat from Aragon while having no other province to bolt too. Talk about anti-climax.

Maybe this happens because the A.I. is programmed to leave the province (as opposed to retreating to the castle) when the King is there and the odds are bad. It is a sensible rule to prevent the King from being caught in a castle, but if this command still applies if there is nowhere to retreat, we would end up with this.

[matteus the inbred]

The victory music is wicked too...

yeah, i love that!! i sit there going 'raah' at the appropriate moments...

[Loucipher]

Oh yeah... the Pope. Pitiful and perfidious excuse of a hillbilly vicar, damn his sanctimonious ass!
Come to think of it, there would be virtually no politics in MTW (except making alliances and royal marriages) if the Papacy weren't that politically active. The constant nagging of the Pope gives just a little idea of what other factions could do if they were given similar powers.

One trick to try next time: before venturing on an expansionist campaign, first attack a Catholic faction you're not really all that interested in, and draw the Papal warning. After about two years, you have ten years to attack the faction you were really after - the Pope can only keep track of one warning at a time. So as long as your first warning is in effect, you won't draw another one no matter what you do.

I have used this trick myself on more than one occassion. A minor conflict with someone such as the Aragonese or Hungary can be a perfect cover for a major assault on a big player such as the French or HRE

Okay, where do I actually find the Pope? I know he lurks somewhere in the Papal states, but how does MTW represent him? Is he represented like an emperor and positioned with his own military unit, just like any other nation's leader would be? Also, would you happen to know what the average life expectancy of the Pope is in MTW?

Papacy is a Catholic faction (their map colour is eggshell yellow, as opposed to the sun yellow colour of the Egyptians). The Pope is its leader and is represented by a leader army stack. His bodyguard unit is, as with any Catholic faction, a Royal Knights retinue of standard size (default 21, including His Sanctimonious Turdiness). Not surprisingly, he has all the traits: Influence, Piety, Dread, Command and Acumen, plus a V&V or two in some cases.
(SIDENOTE:

Yeah, train up a grand inquisitor to five or six stars on your own men and enemy generals and then send him after the Pope. I've succeeded in frying a Pope once, which had me giggling for about 5 minutes.

has anyone else found it amusing that sometimes Popes are downright heretics with 0 Piety? I once saw one of these... made me laugh my throat out 0 Piety... some Pope we have here... I am yet to succeed in burning a ruler with a GI, but I have managed to burn a Polish heir with my Aragon standard Inquisitor with 6 Valour! Fear the Spanish Inquisitors )
The life expectancy of the Pope is exactly the same as that of any other ruler. Before the patch - 56 years before natural death, or earlier by the sword or other mishap After the patch, somewhere around the sixties, though I saw a Pope once who was 71 years old and still alive! He had luckily passed away soon thereafter, so I guess he didn't make it until 75 years

Popes are not that resistent to assassins: they tend to have few command stars. A five star assassin will usually do the trick.

True said, I have managed to kill the King of France in my first MTW Campaign with my 5-star assassin, sent in just for the heck of it He had a heir, so it was a futile exercise, but at least the "daggerboy", as I call them killers, got away and learned something in the process

[Ciaran]

I´ve just found another way of getting recommunicated without the need of someone dying (at least not someone important, doing it this way will lead to a lot of dead).
If you get excommunicated and the pope calls for a crusade you can still launch one if you had the markers built before your excommunication. Crusade against the faction the pope named and you´re back into the church. I don´t know if it works as well if you just launch a crusade without the pope calling for it, though, I haven´t tested that.
It worked like a treat, I was excommed for my war against the English (I´m playing as HRE, funny, by the way, because Frederick II got re-communicated the same way, taking the crusade), then the pope wanted the re-emerged Almohads brought to heel. I complied, to my surprise I could crusade, and when I checked the diplomatic panel, I was marked as a catholic faction again (not an excommed one). Even better, the next turn the English got excommunicated. Sometimes I love the pope

[Total War Merc]

What I do to stop the pope problem:

Play As A Pagan, Orthodox or Muslim Faction! :)

Or

I am not really bothered about being excommunicated since nothing usually happens (except the rebelions - which i stop by lowering taxes to High and have a few more men in a province), if i get the message "withdraw your troups" if i finish the job fast i dont get excommunicated (you gotta love mercs). When im going for 100% i make sure i dont attack the pope, i keep em alive because they reapear like cockroaches and then when there is only us left, i kill em and "poof" 100%.