Traits and Ancillaries Brainstorming and Suggestions Thread

[jebes]

Can you figure out if a faction heir is a younger brother? If so, you could do a "living in his brother's shadow." (Sort of like the way they portrayed Faramir and Boromir in LOTR)

[Hildico]

And on an entirely different note(!), is there a way to sometimes give a character an ancillary that says "exiled __" where having that ancillary could give some sort of bonus toward the acquisition of a particular city, either eleutheroi or held by a faction. Maybe give troops higher morale attacking the city, or be the equivalent of one of those spy networks (which are very well done by the way), or lower the cost to bribe? I don't know if any of that is possible, but it would add a nice dimension to the game.

Maybe you could have different types of effects for this sort of ancillary. You could have exiles as mentioned above giving bonuses, as well as those that kick up a fuss convincing your citizens that "something must be done " and giving public order (or trade, tax, happiness or whatever) penalties until you go and sort the problem and liberate their home city. For this to work,I guess you'd need to be able to remove the ancillary after capturing the city, or at least turn off the negative effects. Would this be possible?

[Danest]

Ah, being traumatized by once's parents... lots of possibilities if it can be coded, such as living in father's shadow (if he was a famous victor, perhaps), or messed up somehow by one's mother (isn't that what might have happened to Nero, among other things?) Excessively mean fathers also might do a number on their kids, I'm sure, and all kinds of other things could mess up the kids.

[paullus]

I have an ancillary idea:

Philopoimen of Megalopolis -- famous warrior and civic leader from the 230's to the 180's, courted by leaders of kingdoms, alliances, and powerful city-states, would probably be good for management and or unrest bonuses, plus either command or morale bonuses, and maybe even influence.

Sound good to anyone?

[Malrubius]

I had a couple of other ideas on the acquisition of wives. In the case of adoptions through marriage, is there a way to tie the quality of the wife to the qaulity of the father/patron?

Yeah, after you accept the suitor, the FatherTrait condition will pull his father-in-law's traits. So a handsome man could have a son-in-law with the "Beautiful Wife" trait or something like that.

And I suppose, since some factions have temples to fertility goddesses, a wife acquired in a city with those temples (dont at least some of the Greeks have Demeter? I could be wrong...) might have higher fertility.

You might could tie the acquisition of a wife to presence in a city that has, in addition to baths, things like athletic fields or theaters.

And I suppose traits like vigorous and charismatic are already tied to the quest for and quality of a wife?

All possible. I think the patch will have more tie-ins with charisma and influence.

And on an entirely different note(!), is there a way to sometimes give a character an ancillary that says "exiled __" where having that ancillary could give some sort of bonus toward the acquisition of a particular city, either eleutheroi or held by a faction. Maybe give troops higher morale attacking the city, or be the equivalent of one of those spy networks (which are very well done by the way), or lower the cost to bribe? I don't know if any of that is possible, but it would add a nice dimension to the game.

Glad to see the spy networks working for somebody! I was getting worried about them (they require a forum or better, so a trader/market isn't enough).

The described ancillary is similar to the turncoat, which gives a bonus when attacking a faction (couldn't give one tied to the attacked city, although I could give a bonus when defending a specific city).

Can you figure out if a faction heir is a younger brother? If so, you could do a "living in his brother's shadow." (Sort of like the way they portrayed Faramir and Boromir in LOTR)

I don't think I can. I can tell if a brother was adopted, or a heir was disinherited, and I believe I can theoretically track whether a son is a firstborn son of the factionleader or not (hmm, the same method might work for other sons, too).

Maybe you could have different types of effects for this sort of ancillary. You could have exiles as mentioned above giving bonuses, as well as those that kick up a fuss convincing your citizens that "something must be done " and giving public order (or trade, tax, happiness or whatever) penalties until you go and sort the problem and liberate their home city. For this to work,I guess you'd need to be able to remove the ancillary after capturing the city, or at least turn off the negative effects. Would this be possible?

I had wanted something like this. The effects would be in the traits files, since they can be turned on and off. Ancillaries can't be controlled as well. The thing there would be someone figuring out historically relevant events like this and writing the messages for them. Some possibilities that we've discussed, but don't have, are:
1. "Rescue Archimedes" mission by conquering Syrakousai before a certain date and saving him from the Romans.
2. Jerusalem Temple event - tie this in with a unique building and the construction of another temple, sparking civil unrest.
3. Roman unrest from Optimate/Populares disputes, like with Caius Gracchus or something.

Ah, being traumatized by once's parents... lots of possibilities if it can be coded, such as living in father's shadow (if he was a famous victor, perhaps), or messed up somehow by one's mother (isn't that what might have happened to Nero, among other things?) Excessively mean fathers also might do a number on their kids, I'm sure, and all kinds of other things could mess up the kids.

We have a little of this, but could do a lot more.

I have an ancillary idea:

Philopoimen of Megalopolis -- famous warrior and civic leader from the 230's to the 180's, courted by leaders of kingdoms, alliances, and powerful city-states, would probably be good for management and or unrest bonuses, plus either command or morale bonuses, and maybe even influence.

Sound good to anyone?

Write me a good biography, and I'll see what I can do.

[paullus]

Philopoimen of Megalopolis

Born in 254, Philopoimen of Megalopolis, son of Kraugis, was educated in philosophy in his youth by leading statesmen and intellectuals in his city, but was always inclined toward the active and harsh lifestyle of the soldier and directed his education toward knowledge of tactics. He managed to evacuate the city in a surprise attack by Cleomenes of Sparta in 234, and distinguished himself at Sellasia in 232. He then served as a mercenary in Crete before returning to Megalopolis and the Achaean League. As the League's general, he defeated the Spartan army at Mantineia in 207, and killed the Spartan king Machanidas. He had the reputation for being a very active and charismatic military man, and was said by some Romans to be the last true Greek.

+1 Command, +1 Morale for troops, +1 Influence

Something like that I guess. Does that sound ok?

[Malrubius]

A lot of bonuses there, but he seems to have been exceptional! Good to have a military-type historical ancillary (getting sick of the pansy philosophers ).

Any ideas for which settlements he could be found in? Or what the requirements might be to get him (besides the appropriate time period)?

[paullus]

Well, probably Korinth would be best, Sparte might work too. The general would probably need to be charismatic, sharp, and vigorous, otherwise--judging from what we know of Philopoimen--he probably would not stick around for long.

Should probably be available only to Greek factions, and possibly to the Romans, since he did cooperate some with the Romans. And I don't know about how this would work, but he supposedly hated the athletic fields, since he found athletic training contrary to a rough military life, so maybe there's some way you could work that in (though more likely you'd just eliminate any chance of getting him at all).

If you could use more military figures, I might could find some. As a trait, how about something like "well read in his Pyrrhus," with a bonus for morale or a command bonus when commanding phalanx units or something, since Pyrrhus' tactical works were supposed to be amazing.

[O'ETAIPOS]

What about "dictator until death" for roman faction leader after marian reform, he need to have Imperator trait or higher, high inluence, high command maybe. Giving further influence, morale to troops, maybe some management, but making chance that other generals will get some bad traits.

Another thing - for Makedon. After the capture of Tylis Mak general could get something like "Avenger" trait giving him influence. Maybe also some script adding of population to Pella and Demetias to reflect return of slaves?

[paullus]

Couple more Greek ideas:

euergetes - given to a city governor who builds a lot of public works type things, with either a happiness/unrest sorta bonus, or management

and a type 2 ancillary: euergetes hetairos (or something like that) - a rich citizen inspired by your benefficence (I may have bombed that spelling...its been a loooong day) has taken it upon himself to assist you in your service to the community...so long as his name is included on the foundational inscriptions. A tax bonus would be really nice, but I dunno if you can do that with an ancillary. If not, then probably management and maybe influence too.

And finally, stephanos aristeion (again, pardon if spelling is off) -- a crown for virtue/bravery, which was awarded by the people to a warrior who performed bravely in battle. I'm not sure how triggers work with battle results, but if the general's unit killed a lot of guys, or the general lost a few hitpoints but made it out and killed a lot of guys while a lot of his guys died...something a long those lines.
Along with an unrest bonus and a morale bonus, something like that?

Alternatively, if you had a selfish general who won a lot of the valor traits, you might consider something along the lines of "shunned troops" with a morale hit...not sure how you'd want to work that out.

[jebes]

Could you give all the generals that are in settlements a huge tax increase when war is declared by another faction? This would be to simulate a war levy.

[Warlord 11]

Two ideas:

-Each turn your faction is in debt, give all generals a "troops want their salary" trait. Lowers morale. When sacking (enslaving or exterminating) a city, the trait goes away.


-This requires that it is possible through scripting to kill generals. If your generals get sick, kill them. This would be more likely if they weren't allowed to rest, and less likely if they are in a city with public health buildings.

[Malrubius]

Very good suggestions, paullus and O'ETAIPOS! More military figures would be good. I'd like to do a "dictator" trait for Romans, but haven't had a chance yet.

@jebes, I don't know if that's possible. I'll have to look through the available events. I know you can tell if a faction is on a war footing. Maybe that would be good enough.

Two ideas:

-Each turn your faction is in debt, give all generals a "troops want their salary" trait. Lowers morale. When sacking (enslaving or exterminating) a city, the trait goes away.

Hmm, I've been working on a logistics system through traits. This would fit into it very nicely.

If there's no money, there probably won't be food and supplies, either! Disputes over pay led directly to Carthage's Mercenary War.

-This requires that it is possible through scripting to kill generals. If your generals get sick, kill them. This would be more likely if they weren't allowed to rest, and less likely if they are in a city with public health buildings.

Not possible to kill them, but we can make them pretty darned useless. See here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...20&postcount=9

[jerby]

you already ahve traits describing their itelligens/charisma/vigor.
and selfish/../..
how abotu such a trait, that determine steh furtehr growth fo a character: His temper. giving him chances to be "bad mouthed", "Tantrum tank" or "pansie" "weakling" "loser of life" or gives him somehtign positive like "asertive" giving him extra movement, or extra command when attacking?

[jebes]

Hmm, I've been working on a logistics system through traits. This would fit into it very nicely.

If there's no money, there probably won't be food and supplies, either! Disputes over pay led directly to Carthage's Mercenary War.

Yes, but this doesn't work. The reason that you can get into debt is that you are actually paying the troops. They only way it would work realistically is once you are in debt by about 30k or something and the rich stop lending you money, or hide it from you. At that point, you should also receive extra money because you stop paying anybody and therefore don't go into debt.

I don't think it would be very fun to go into debt, Have all your troops get really mad as you sink deeper into debt, then turn on you while you owe 100,000 Mnai that you supposedly never paid them.

Hmm, well I guess that the negative Mnai could represent the back pay you owe your troops, and not money you owe the lenders and other nobility. In that case it would make sense, but I still think it wouldn't be realistic until you could script a way to cancel the debt if the unit rebels or deserts.

[paullus]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the debt and logistics thing. And I have an idea!

Ok, so you know how generals for many factions are given ethnicities? Well, in the case of the Successor states (I don't know about others), while a man may start his career as Perses, if he did well enough, people started to identify him as Makedon, he could even be juridically recognized as Makedon. I'm not saying you could change his proclivity for traits (but maybe that would be possible), but give him an influence bonus for being accepted as an equal.

[Dooz]

How's about King Killer... er uh... something along those lines? If theres a way to detect when you killed a rival faction's leader in battle, the general that accomplished that could get a trait like that...

Ah, can't wait for the logistics systems. And the diplomats becoming ambassadors. Yay.

[Malrubius]

How's about King Killer... er uh... something along those lines? If theres a way to detect when you killed a rival faction's leader in battle, the general that accomplished that could get a trait like that...

Don't think that's possible. I think you can tell when you killed a general, but not faction leader.

Ah, can't wait for the logistics systems. And the diplomats becoming ambassadors. Yay.

Don't expect too much from the logistics--all I can do is adjust troop morale and bodyguard valour. The diplomat thing should be useful in warding off bribes, at least.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to the debt and logistics thing. And I have an idea!

Ok, so you know how generals for many factions are given ethnicities? Well, in the case of the Successor states (I don't know about others), while a man may start his career as Perses, if he did well enough, people started to identify him as Makedon, he could even be juridically recognized as Makedon. I'm not saying you could change his proclivity for traits (but maybe that would be possible), but give him an influence bonus for being accepted as an equal.

Sounds good to me! I'll run it by the historian-types.

[Dooz]

Well the logistics thing, like most all the other traits, is just for my own piece of mind more than anything else really. Adds to immersion. Good stuff.

[paullus]

Sounds good to me! I'll run it by the historian-types.

I got the idea from Recherches Sur Les Armees Hellenistiques, by Marcel Launey, if that's any help.

[Justiciar]

Literacy, maybe?
Bookworm +2 Managment
Literate +1 Managment
Illiterate -1 Managment
Terriffied by Paper -2 Managment

Maybe there could be a 'bastard/illegitimate' trait that decreases influence? Or 'Rumoured Bastard' as in it isn't clear but it's still a constant issue in the general's life.. which might well be even more damaging.

[The_White_Knight]

I've got a couple of suggestions: but I don't know whether they are possible to script in.

1. The 'ambassador'-trait and the 'spy network'-trait are both very interesting. However I wonder: is it possible to give a similar bonus-boost for gouverners who lead their cities for a very long time? -i.e. the gouvernor would become an experienced ruler and therefor get many tax/happiness bonuses, but only in the city he gouverned? The occurany of this trait would ofcourse be heavily influenced by parameters as acumen...
2. The characters in EB are fun to seem them evolve, however I missed a little bit of 'interaction' between different members of the royal family. Is it possible to deepen out the different relations between campaign characters? It could open a wealth of possibilities, not only between general-general but also between general-diplomats... For example one ruler could be to much of a 'wish-crack' and interfere with every step a diplomat [ambassador] makes in the settlement...
   

PS/ Awesome work on EB traits. It's what I love most about EB.

[Malrubius]

@Justiciar: we have something like that, with a general's proclivity to learning or aversion to it, or even one who's self-educated (Unschooled, Practical, Scholarly, etc traits). That probably covers it.

It wouldn't be too hard to do the Bastard trait; Hiero of Syrakousai would fit the bill, I think. It could be obtained when suitors or adoption candidates are offered (men of the hour would be very prone to it, I guess). Even sons could have it, if their father has a trait like "Cuckold" (meaning the son is the wife's), or if the father has the adultery vice or something similar.

I've got a couple of suggestions: but I don't know whether they are possible to script in.

1. The 'ambassador'-trait and the 'spy network'-trait are both very interesting. However I wonder: is it possible to give a similar bonus-boost for gouverners who lead their cities for a very long time? -i.e. the gouvernor would become an experienced ruler and therefor get many tax/happiness bonuses, but only in the city he gouverned? The occurany of this trait would ofcourse be heavily influenced by parameters as acumen...
2. The characters in EB are fun to seem them evolve, however I missed a little bit of 'interaction' between different members of the royal family. Is it possible to deepen out the different relations between campaign characters? It could open a wealth of possibilities, not only between general-general but also between general-diplomats... For example one ruler could be to much of a 'wish-crack' and interfere with every step a diplomat [ambassador] makes in the settlement...
   

PS/ Awesome work on EB traits. It's what I love most about EB.

Glad you're enjoying them!

Yeah, therother has been on me about doing what you mentioned in (1). (2) would be a bit difficult, because I can check what a father's traits are, but the father can't tell what his son's traits are, in game terms. I could do things at random, but they might seem incongruous. Same would go with relations between spies and assassins. For a little role-playing effect, it might be fun, but I wouldn't want to tie any severe penalties to it.

[Warlord 11]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=125

Some good ideas. I like the language idea. Perhaps he will let you use it. Just a thought.

[john289]

I think something should be done about the Gloomy trait line. If your general is has the pessimistic trait, it's pretty likely he'll end up with Melancholic. It just kills my generals influence. I haven't checked the threshold, but I think raising it a tad would be good.

[SpawnOfEbil]

How about an Architect trait that reduces building build times?

[paullus]

Any chance we could rename the Merc captain to xenologos (merc recruiter)?

Edit: Ah, good point Trithemius. This would only be for Greek factions, and perhaps you could use it for the Getai as well.

[Trithemius]

Any chance we could rename the Merc captain to xenologos (merc recruiter)?

Or "Master of Auxiliaries" or something for the Romans?

[Trithemius]

I notice that the Romans have different status classes as their "ethnicities" (at least in the timeframe that my game is in), as well as picking up Optimate/Moderate/Populist traits.

I assume that, later on, Roman adoptees can start to pick up foreign ethnicities and so on - if not would this be something that could be made to happen?

Also, I am curious if the trait system could stand to have particular Families (gens) as traits as well? Or perhaps lesser traits that depend upon their social class?

[mattholomew]

could there perhaps be an iron fist trait for older generals who have spent a very long time governing a city or with huge amounts of influence (obviously they would also need to be corrupt, have a position in government, selfish, possibly the presence of one of the despotic buildings like execution squares or gladiatorial arenas). They would be able to make lots of profit off of the city and avoid the suspicious eyes of those higher up thanks to bribery, making it unlikelyto be censured. obviously their methods of tax collecting and enforcing law would include torture, imprisonment, and "vanishing" political enemies. This might bring a law bonus at first, as well as decreased population growth (representing people being arrested/executed) but soon a second trait could arrive representing how tired the people get of such tyranny. this would cause severe unrest due to unnhappiness, less order due to law, and a decrease in personal security. Maybe their bodyguards might even become less loyal because they've been ordered to do comit too many crimes. it would be easy to look the other way as their leader is hacked to pieces. If possible you could make them likely to die earlier. it would be fun to see that they died from "natural causes" later on.

another suggestion, a general might lose some command/influence if they relied too much on mercenaries and not enough on native troops. as well there could be an "enjoys foreign culture" or "foreign wife" trait which might give them less influence and less command because his people no longer trust him. at least they would be less likely to get a powerful position in government. there could be a problem with determining what the culture of the general was, but maybe faction-specific buildings might effect this. ie: a roman who spends too much time in settlements with greek buildings might get the "wants to be greek" trait. When this general entered a roman settlement with a romans only building, he would get a trait such as "seen as a traitor" this would last only until he left and went to a city with a greek building, where it would cause the trait "feels right at home"

maybe you could also do this with schools and other cultural buildings. an intelligent general with the trait "philosophically inclined" might start to feel impatient in a city without an educational building. this could lead to all kinds of bad things like "sees others as inferior". The same could be done in reverse.

oh, just one other thing could perhaps be an "idealist" who could try to take away things like gladiatorial fights or high taxes. If they did implement high taxes, they would be merciful and also work harder to benefit the people. eventually their reforms in the city could lead to population growth and incredible loyalty. they could crack down on corruption and get discounts. Also, the people would be willing to work and fight harder and/or for less pay, since this man was so kind. at the same time, their security might go down when the local aristocracy feels like they've been wronged. on the other hand the people would be so loyal that no one would be able to attack this general. Obviously they would be hard to bribe, and unlikely to be a good military leader, since their morals would contradict military action.