Any use for Cardinals?

**Matty** · 01-09-2006, 17:03

I'm fairly scrupulous in my use of the agents (although I'll limit myself to one grand inquisitor and 4 normal ones) but can't find any great use for cardinals (or bishops for that matter). Am I missing something?

Also, is there a way for the inquisitors to get killed on mission (like the uber assassin geisha chicks from STW who would sometimes get killed by assassins or other geishas). I miss those cool cut scenes from the agent action in STW....

**Procrustes** · 01-09-2006, 17:20

Hi,

Cardinals/Bishops/Priests can be used to convert the populance to your religion. You'll have a lot less trouble if the populance shares your religion, and you can make trouble for your enemies by converting their citizens. They can also be used to form alliances with other factions, like emissaries, though they can not request princesses for marriage. One other thing - keeping a bunch of bishops/cardinals in the same province as your inquisitors seems to lessen the chances that you'll get an inquisition going - though that's not a hard rule.

HTH,

**NodachiSam** · 01-09-2006, 17:24

I miss those cool cutscenes too but that's another matter entirely :P Inquisitors are eterna agents and can't be killed in their line of work. Of course assassins can take them out. They do get valour however and sometimes kill lowly assassins but arn't the equivilent of general.

Cardinals, orthodox Bishops and their muslim equivalent are the super priests and convert at much faster rate. They can bring a captured province or one that you want to capture into line much faster than normal thus saving you aggravation. Also the Cathedral gives +3 moral but I don't know if its cumulative with the monastery or relinquery, or church for that matter. What sucks about that is that any province with that bonus is one you likely want to produce soldiers at.

Why not only make graninquisitors when you're able? I don't see any benefit to the normal ones over them.

**Martok** · 01-09-2006, 17:24

Cardinals are basically bishops on steroids. They convert the population faster than a bishop and are harder to kill. Probably the biggest difference is that unlike bishops, cardinals can counteract the effect of inquisitors and grand inquisitors in a province. So if someone's trying to fry one of your generals, or an inquisition is starting to get out of hand, sending in a cardinal or two is a good way to calm things down.

**Matty** · 01-09-2006, 17:40

Originally Posted by NodachiSam

Why not only make graninquisitors when you're able? I don't see any benefit to the normal ones over them.

Thanks all.

I only have one because I think they seriously overpower the game. My normal inquisitors, given enough time and effort, can take out an enemy heir on their own.

In my current game I have four inquisitors (all 7 and 6 star) and one grand inquisitor (new boy) - I've been burning every English general and prince for 50 years (OK, I miss a few princes) and they cannot get a 5 star general without me taking them out. On the few occassions where an enemy inquisitor comes along, they usually go for my garrison general of peasants. And I play on expert (XL Mod) - it seems a bit unfair. I don't ever lose a good general or heir to assassins/inquisition.

**ajaxfetish** · 01-09-2006, 17:58

Another possible use for bishops/cardinals is as spies. They don't tend to get assassinated as often as emissaries (though some provinces seem to love murdering these guys), and of course they're not affected by borderforts or counterspying agents.

Inquisitors haven't been quite as nice to me. I've had several games where one of them will waltz in and start eliminating all my decent generals, and sometimes I'm in a position to need those ones. They've usually picked up enough stars that my fledgling assassination program can't take them out, especially as they move around so often and drag their pursuers through areas with border forts. Sometimes the easiest way to protect myself is to go all out against their faction and eliminate them all.

Ajax

**Roark** · 01-10-2006, 00:17

Cardinals, Orthohodox Bishops and Imams are all great for provoking civil wars in opposing factions too...

Find a province with a relatively small garrison and plonk your super-religous agents in there. Then just wait. IT's a great way of creating rebel provinces without officially going to war with someone.

**Ludens** · 01-10-2006, 19:39

Originally Posted by Roark

Cardinals, Orthohodox Bishops and Imams are all great for provoking civil wars in opposing factions too...

Yes, but religious revolts are not civil wars. They don't turn your enemies royal family or top generals against each other.

Martok, are you sure that bishops don't stop inquisitors? I have never researched, but mainly took it on faith because some else posted it and my cardinals also seem to slow them down.

Incidentally, the Muslim equivalent of the Cardinal, the Imam, increases zeal in Muslim provinces. Though this is not as important as for a Crusades (as Jihads are more limited in their targets), it is still nice for generating some extra Janisaries.

**Roark** · 01-11-2006, 00:09

Originally Posted by Ludens

Yes, but religious revolts are not civil wars. They don't turn your enemies royal family or top generals against each other.

You are indeed correct (My main point being that rebel provinces are created by the uprisings).

**Martok** · 01-11-2006, 00:21

Originally Posted by Ludens

Martok, are you sure that bishops don't stop inquisitors? I have never researched, but mainly took it on faith because some else posted it and my cardinals also seem to slow them down.

Hang on here, I'll double-check.... Well it says right in the manual that *both* bishops and cardinals can help keep an inquisitor from getting out of control, so it would indeed appear that my earlier post was incorrect. (And no, I don't know how the idea that bishops couldn't do that got stuck in my head.)

Even assuming the manual is correct, though, I still don't think bishops are nearly as good at counteracting inquisitors as cardinals are. In a few early games from when I started playing MTW over three years ago, I know I would spam my provinces with multiple bishops in an attempt to prevent nearby inquisitors (both other factions' and my own) from going overboard. They never seemed to make much of a dent, however. Only if I sent in a cardinal or two would things truly calm down.

So at least in my experience, a single cardinal is more effective than a handful of bishops--not to mention more cost-effective. It's been a *loooong* time since I've even tried using bishops for that purpose, though; so it could be that I just have a selective memory, and that bishops might work just fine.

I just know that given how ineffective they seemed to be at the time, I long ago started using the tactic of cranking out as many cardinals as I possibly could (in place of bishops).

Originally Posted by Ludens

Incidentally, the Muslim equivalent of the Cardinal, the Imam, increases zeal in Muslim provinces. Though this is not as important as for a Crusades (as Jihads are more limited in their targets), it is still nice for generating some extra Janisaries.

I agree, Imams rule! Nothing like sending a few of them out to whip up the Faithful into a frenzy and take back what Allah wills me to have.

**NodachiSam** · 01-11-2006, 08:01

I use religious agents for a spy network. Not only do I see everything I want I make trouble for everyone and make conquest for myself easier :) As well they are, as said in an earlier post, rarely ever targetted.

**lugh** · 01-11-2006, 13:59

As others have said, a spy network of ecclesiasts is very effective, I used to try emmisaries, it made more sense, but they attract assassins very fast.
If you hide away and don't rampage across the map, you tend to end up facing 1-2 large empires in Late, if they're of a different religion, the religious revolts kick in, along with normal "imperial overstretch" rebellions and you can collapse your enemies with a few swift assassinations to promote a full blown civil war. I love doing this as the Byz, it just seems to make sense somehow.

**ajaxfetish** · 01-11-2006, 21:47

Originally Posted by Martok

So at least in my experience, a single cardinal is more effective than a handful of bishops--not to mention more cost-effective. It's been a *loooong* time since I've even tried using bishops for that purpose, though; so it could be that I just have a selective memory, and that bishops might work just fine.

I've also tried using Bishops to hold off inquisitors and have felt completely helpless. I haven't done as much with Cardinals so I can't make a great comparison, but my Bishop attempts have all been disappointments.

Ajax