“They’ve breached the gate, let’s fall back… or not?” :knight:

[elbasto]

A small question for the experienced players out there; when do castle defenses stop firing?

For instance, if I’m defending a Citadel with Barbican and the enemy breaks through the gate, do the first line of defenses stop firing or they continue to do so either until the end of the siege or until they are destroyed by siege weaponry?

As far as I know, castle defenses have unlimited ammo, so I really need this info in order to set a standardized small but reasonably strong garrison that can keep the line while my castle defenses pounded the besieger’s morale and manpower.

I was thinking maybe two halberdiers per castle with ballista and catapults towers could hold at most what the AI throws and at the same time won’t starve?

Thanks for throwing any light into this.

[matteus the inbred]

so far as i know, a castle in general will keep firing until the garrison are all dead, although towers appear to stop once they've been destroyed. i assaulted a small fort with motte/bailey using trebuchets and a merc regiment of Byzantine swords, and even though my siege engines took out the keep building itself, my attacking units CONTINUED to take arrowfire casualties until the last defenders got taken out. not many,as it was a small castle, but assaults on big castles have cost me 3-400 men before now.

one thing that someone suggested to me was organ guns, if you have VI. very small garrison, lots of devastation. but yeah, one regiment of halberdiers would do the trick nicely, i think, as long as it's a 60 man or fewer. maybe dismounted knights as well.

[elbasto]

I thought about dismounted knights but wouldn't they starve quicker? (because of the horses I assume)

[Geezer57]

My experiences, plus what I've read, indicate that each "ring" of defenses keeps firing until either the individual towers are destroyed or there's no garrison within that section of the defenses. Once the enemy "captures" each concentric portion of the fortification, it no longer fires.

One wag told of hiding Hashishin on the far side of each ring from the point of attack - that way the towers would keep firing even after the gates were destroyed. The AI apparently will only "see" the hidden units when its units get quite close. This would also work with Sherwood Foresters - any unit able to "hide".

[Ironside]

Destroying all the wall segments together with all the towers also prevents arrow fire too.
How those wall segements attack is another issue though

[Frankymole]

Destroying all the wall segments together with all the towers also prevents arrow fire too.
How those wall segements attack is another issue though

Using arrow slits and battlements - that's what they're for!!

Remember the "castle defenders" who shoot arrows (and artillery from towers) are not your garrisoned troops - they're extra and come with (and hide in) the fortification structure. You doin't see them. You can have a garrison of only one man, and still all the towers and walls and gates shoot arrows/rocks/pour boiling oil :)

[Ironside]

Using arrow slits and battlements - that's what they're for!!

Remember the "castle defenders" who shoot arrows (and artillery from towers) are not your garrisoned troops - they're extra and come with (and hide in) the fortification structure. You doin't see them. You can have a garrison of only one man, and still all the towers and walls and gates shoot arrows/rocks/pour boiling oil :)

From those wooden walls in a fort?

[Matty]

What's the best strategy in defending a castle - have troops outside to defend the gate (thereby allowing your castle defenders to pepper the enemy) or start with everyone inside.

The advantages of defending the gate are clear - you get more 'free' shots at the enemy from your troops in the towers etc. But what if they rout back into the castle and open the gate for the enemy?

If your men are defending the gate, will you pour oil on them if the enemy engages hand to hand and comes within the 'pour zone' of the oilmen? How about having an organ cannon in front of the gate rather than placing it behind and waiting for the gate to be broken? Is there any way you can get more than one dose of oil? That stuff is cool. well, hot.

[Vladimir]

I think the enemy gets a squeeze penalty when it comes through the gate. If not then they still have a limited front and long flank (like a bridge battle) which works to your advantage. If you have your troops outside they're more vulnerable to missile fire and cavalry. The only time I would recommend that is if you need to sally and destroy their siege equipment. The organ gun would best be used in a gauntlet style gate defense. Once they breach the gate and are in the courtyard fire the gun once (making sure your troops are safe) and then move your troops in on their flanks (or box them in).

[Ludens]

I think the enemy gets a squeeze penalty when it comes through the gate. If not then they still have a limited front and long flank (like a bridge battle) which works to your advantage. If you have your troops outside they're more vulnerable to missile fire and cavalry. The only time I would recommend that is if you need to sally and destroy their siege equipment. The organ gun would best be used in a gauntlet style gate defense. Once they breach the gate and are in the courtyard fire the gun once (making sure your troops are safe) and then move your troops in on their flanks (or box them in).

I second these suggestions. The missile fire from the towers is not powerful enough to compensate for the fact that you are outnumbered, exposed and without morale bonus outside of the castle. Wait until they breach the wall or storm the gate (and are thinned by a few gallons of bioling oil), and then surround them. Dismounted knight make excellent defense troops as their low number is not so important anymore.

[Frankymole]

From those wooden walls in a fort?

You mean the ones with a gantry all round for defenders to stand on?

[Frankymole]

Is there any way you can get more than one dose of oil? That stuff is cool. well, hot.

Depending how long the enemy takes to break your gatehouse (how many units he attacks it with) you can have several lots of oil come pouring down. I've had up to 4 when he's been particlularly ineffective and using small units!

[Ludens]

Depending how long the enemy takes to break your gatehouse (how many units he attacks it with) you can have several lots of oil come pouring down. I've had up to 4 when he's been particlularly ineffective and using small units!

IIRC each gate house as four "shots" available, but I am not entirely sure about this.

[BAD]

The organ gun would best be used in a gauntlet style gate defense. Once they breach the gate and are in the courtyard fire the gun once (making sure your troops are safe) and then move your troops in on their flanks (or box them in).

The defenders organ guns can fire through their portcullis aswell (before its been destroyed, and it doesn't do damage to it xD ). Found that out by accident when I left it accidently on "fire at will" . . . those VG's didn't know what hit them.

[Vladimir]

The defenders organ guns can fire through their portcullis as well (before its been destroyed, and it doesn't do damage to it xD ). Found that out by accident when I left it accidentally on "fire at will" . . . those VG's didn't know what hit them.

I tried that once and noticed dramatic damage to my gate when the guns fired compared to the fairly steady damage from attacking troops. That only happened once and I didn’t care to repeat the experiment.

[gunslinger]

Wow, defending casles sounds like fun. In my two campaigns (one easy, one hard) I've never had the AI attack a castle. They just sit there and try to starve me out until I counter attack them from outside the province. I never spend the building time for extra castle defenses, and I only upgrade castles for the tech advances. I think the game would be more fun if I could try my hand at defending a castle.

[elbasto]

Are organ guns even worth it?

I've never cared to build them.

[Vladimir]

I never build them, I usually get enough as mercs. I like to use them to cover my flanks on defense but usually only one gets to see action. I should boost their range slightly.

[Matty]

I've never had much success - even if you get to use them their range is so short that as soon as they've got a shot off the enemy is all over them. hence, they all get massacred and the valour can't be carried over into the next battle.

[Betito]

Are organ guns even worth it?

I've never cared to build them.

They are useless in open field, but when it comes to castles, they absolutely blow!

If used properly, it can rout an entire army, in 1 single blow. I mean it: you can erase 3 or more units of the enemy in 1 shot. It has an amazing blast radious and it is perfectly capable of decimating a full VG unit(80 men, IIRC) into 20 or less men. Not to mention that if you get to do this with the general unit, even a slight counter-charge will be enough to rout them all.

The best way to place these guns, at least in my opinion, is in the last gate, since you get a slight height advantage there. This heiight is important because the gun has a horrible range, and is it not too hard to get this beauty erasing you own units instead of the enemies.

So, in conclusion: Yes, it is worth it, but only in very specific situations

[Marquis de Said]

Are organ guns even worth it?

I've never cared to build them.

I use them all the time. Others have mentioned how useful they are in defending castle sieges.
But I use them on the field all the time as well. If I'm on high ground I place them BEHIND my wall of spears, and they actually manage to fire over my troops. Have them on skirmish so they retreat after the first shot and you might be lucky enough to use them again if you repel the first wave. I've racked up 50-70 kills on the field with very careful use of organ guns. Don't leave them on fire at will though, cause they'll keep firing into your own men.
Not recommended for people who don't like micromanagement though.

[The Darkhorn]

I've got a dumb AI castle story. I've recently disappearred from the org for a while as I've been up to my armpits enjoying my first mod, the XL. THANKS TO ALL INVOLVED. I haven't won a campaign yet...it's wonderful!!! I enjoy just trying to survive!! Okay, back to subject. In an XL "Vulger-Bulgar" campaign I had prepared Khazar (greater or lesser I can't remember- the one the GH shows up in) with enough garrison and catapults to fill the citadel and babrican. This is a Horde culling tactic I've often used with the Poles long before XL. They lose 3k-5k taking the fort each game I play. I tried a different tactic with the Vulgar-Bulgars though. After my catapults quit firing, I ran them around to the back of the first band of fortifications, hoping to keep the outer defenses firing as long as possible. The GH stormed the keep and killed every one of my other defenders, but never ventured around to locate my missing units. They did send a couple of MHC around the back of the OUTSIDE of the fortifications. They sat by my units with the wall between them for the whole battle. One MHC sat between the gates getting shot. The rest of the army sat out of range....and well...just....sat....for 40 minutes.....and lost the battle. I was thrilled, but wasn't that stupid!!!??