Cleansing oneself of political mularky...

[Devastatin Dave]

Be it the left or the right, the liberal or conservative, or whatever political party one has allowed to control their beliefs and thoughts, I have made it my mission to wipe the filth and grim of political spectrums that I've allowed to control my thought processes and feelings towards issues that really, in day to day life, don't have any effect on me what so ever.

Abortion... the debate continues, is it a fetus, is it a baby, are you evil for having an abortion, are you evil for apposing those that see it as a right. But in the broader spectrum of my life, why should I give a rat's ass? My wife and I have two wonderful kids and if a third one comes around, we won't abort it simply because it might put us in a pinch. But at the same time, why should I spend endless hours debating the ills or benefits of this act? So I give it to God and let Him judge.

The Death Penalty rages on... how does this effect me? Well, not at all as it turns out. I've never killed anyone nor plan to. None in my family has ever been involved in a murder (well there may have been one or two back in the day but thats a different story). Why waste my time trying to convince someone that they should see it as i do, state sanction murder that is fouled with inconsistent laws when it would be cheaper and more effective to hold these murderers in prison for the rest of there lives? So I give it to God and let Him judge.

The recent fraud of many Party members I've supported... Nothing makes me more angry than defending someone that only turns out to be just the same shista lawyers that chase ambulances and take $.75 to the dollar of any person they represent. Both the parties are bought and sold here in the US, the representation the American people within their government are not the elected officials that speak for the people, they only speak for oil companies, abortionists, ACLU trial lawyers, and Christian extremists that preach something totally different from what God's Word says. They'll be judged as well. So I give it to God and let Him judge.

I could go on with several more examples of the many exchanges that go on and on and on in our beloved Tavern. I am not saying that there should not be a debate, I just feel whats the point in debating when neither side budges and all it does is inflame tensions between most people that would probably be great friends outside of this world we have created to be heard? The more I think about all these things that I've over the years have railed against or die-heartedly supported till the fingers bleed when all the while my words and actions only hurt the ideals and arguments that i was detailing to those with apposing views. Yes, the hypocrisy and irony of this post is beyond the realm of ridiculous from the prospective of those that have known me over the years, but just take a moment to think about it. Is it really that rewarding to you that you've argued something to a point that you've made someone look like a fool, 9 times out of 10 the fool is yourself, or that you've caused the debate to become undebatable? After much thought and reason and council from my Pastor, I will strive to debate things that truelly affect my life and things that are debatable. Good topics that could have a conscencous and not come to loggerheads with people that I've grown to respect and care about over the years. I have no idea really what has made me post this rant/self absorbed reflection, but i just thought I'd share and i have a felling that many out there might actually agree with me. but I won't worry about that because I have given it to God and let Him judge.

[Lemur]

I am not saying that there should not be a debate, I just feel whats the point in debating when neither side budges and all it does is inflame tensions between most people that would probably be great friends outside of this world we have created to be heard?

That sums it all up in a nutshell. Very well put, DevDave, and this lemur wishes you the best of luck and fortitude with your new path. It's an honorable choice you're making, and we can all stand to be instructed by it.

[Geoffrey S]

Careful, though. It's only a fine line between being neutral and political apathy. Although debates tend to become heated and may get out of hand, I much prefer that to the disinterest I see in so many around me when it comes to various issues; Iraq, abortion, the death penalty, etc. Although for a large part this can be blamed on so many disappointing politicians, those same politicians get their chance through the apathy of a large portion of potential voters who just don't care anymore.

So, keep an eye out for apathy sneaking in, y'all.

[KukriKhan]

An epiphany on Epiphany. Dave...words fail, Sir.

All note: an honorable man has passed our way

[master of the puppets]

...ok, so you've like...found jesus then?, personally i see this country as corrupt as hell and is in need of either greast reform or total destruction. most likely total destruction...most likely i will push the button.

[Red Peasant]

Ahh, very nice. So you've finished with the Backroom then DD?

Au revoir
Aufwiedersehen
Ave et Vale
See ya around

[Devastatin Dave]

...ok, so you've like...found jesus then?, personally i see this country as corrupt as hell and is in need of either greast reform or total destruction. most likely total destruction...most likely i will push the button.

Jesus found me, my dear Brother, but many of my Muslim Brothers and Sister along with many other beliefs and thought systems have found this path as well and would agree with me that beliefs and ideals can only be argued to a certain point, then it becomes as pointless as air conditioning in an igloo. I do not see myself as apathetic, I find myself shedding beliefs that have pounded in my head by pundents and idealogues have instructed me to believe and have used my time and emotional energy on thier own crusades against invisible enemies. My dear Brother, total destruction of this country shall never happen. The reason, America is not Democrate or Republican, majority nor minority, it is found within us all and if the People were to see this then maybe, just maybe, the parties will either listen or be desolved. I must see to my family and friends and not allow myself to get caught up in the parties own agendas and power plays for the profits of their backers. Dear friends, brothers and sisters all, why let my heart of mind be troubled by the pain and tribulations others wants one to suffer? Master of the Puppets, this country shall run its course, like all. Your path may be influenced by Her actions and the actions of those appointed to guide Her through current crisises and periods of unrest, but the ideals of our Forfathers and the developement of our government cannot be completely absolved throught the ranglings of those of lesser moral influences. The button may be the answer eventually, but the human spirit with the help of God and general good will cannot be overthrown.

[Devastatin Dave]

Ahh, very nice. So you've finished with the Backroom then DD?

Au revoir
Aufwiedersehen
Ave et Vale
See ya around

No not in the least my friend, I'm just reasoning my existence and my beliefs openly in order to be held in account by you and anyone else that might see me in the future say or act in a foolosh and detrimental way. I want to change my ways but in order to do that one must confess their sins. I have sinned against you my friend in many arguements we have had in the past. I have bared false witness against you and ask for your forgiveness dear Brother. Let this thread be one of coming together and one of consideration for each other. i want to debate with you on merit not on my own emotional ill feelings about subjects. But if there are subjects that we are on total polar opposite sides of, I want to be able to walk away from a stalmate of ideas in order not to cause so much vile venom that have plagued so many of my posts to you dear Friend. Shall i have your forgiveness my friend?

[Ser Clegane]

Uhm ... sorry ... I shouldn't try to be facetious.

Seriously - kudos to you, Dave

Some wise words that a lot of us (including myself) should remind themselves of from time to time

[Red Peasant]

No not in the least my friend, I'm just reasoning my existence and my beliefs openly in order to be held in account by you and anyone else that might see me in the future say or act in a foolosh and detrimental way. I want to change my ways but in order to do that one must confess their sins. I have sinned against you my friend in many arguements we have had in the past. I have bared false witness against you and ask for your forgiveness dear Brother. Let this thread be one of coming together and one of consideration for each other. i want to debate with you on merit not on my own emotional ill feelings about subjects. But if there are subjects that we are on total polar opposite sides of, I want to be able to walk away from a stalmate of ideas in order not to cause so much vile venom that have plagued so many of my posts to you dear Friend. Shall i have your forgiveness my friend?

Christ DD! This is a forum where people shoot the breeze, nobody bothers me, including you so there's nothing to forgive. There's one thing I might not be able to forgive you for however....if you become dull and bore us all! Piety can be extremely dull you know.

Roll on brother!!

diu vivas semperque valeas!!

[Devastatin Dave]

Christ DD! This is a forum where people shoot the breeze, nobody bothers me, including you so there's nothing to forgive. There's one thing I might not be able to forgive you for however....if you become dull and bore us all! Piety can be extremely dull you know.

Roll on brother!!

diu vivas semperque valeas!!

So the more dull and boring I am, the more it gets on your nerves? Hmmmm, i have found the secret weapon!!! No longer shall i argue with you and attack you with the greatest of ad hominem, i will post in such a dull and delicate manner that you will punch a hole through your monitor and smash your keyboard into a million pieces!!!

[Red Peasant]

That's the spirit!

[Xiahou]

Well Dave, just to pick one example...

Abortion... the debate continues, is it a fetus, is it a baby, are you evil for having an abortion, are you evil for apposing those that see it as a right. But in the broader spectrum of my life, why should I give a rat's ass? My wife and I have two wonderful kids and if a third one comes around, we won't abort it simply because it might put us in a pinch. But at the same time, why should I spend endless hours debating the ills or benefits of this act? So I give it to God and let Him judge.

Assuming that we truly believe that abortion is akin to murder, I don't think it would speak well of us to sit by and not even speak out just because it doesnt directly affect us.

[Devastatin Dave]

Well Dave, just to pick one example...
Assuming that we truly believe that abortion is akin to murder, I don't think it would speak well of us to sit by and not even speak out just because it doesnt directly affect us.

Excellent point, and what i say might look to be apathetic but my main point is that the arguement, atleast in a dozen threads that have discussed or to better put it, argued to a point of no reasoning, this topic has never found any common ground. I just don't see a point in argueing it when the views of this procedure are in such opposite camps. Then you have the "I don't belive in abortion unless, this, this, and this" then there's the "i support abortion unless its this, this, or this". My friend, don't see this as me having no sympathy to the unborn or that my innaction to the arguement or not coming to the aid of those involved in these discussions in our Forum as a sign of retreat or cowardness, its just that my opinion on this subject really has no bearing until either there is a change in law or a sweeping change in public opinion. Sorry if I've dissapointed you, and especially you for you have always been a strong ally of mine and have come to my aid in so many battles fought here in the Tavern, but I'm just not willing to spend my emotional and Spiritual self on such arguements that have no resolution. i will give these things to the Lord and let Him decide in due time.

[Don Corleone]

I would argue that you ought to find common ground and work to curtail the procedure to a more reasonable level then it currently exists. I think 95% of Americans, and Europeans for that matter, agree that an elective abortion at 35 weeks is hideous and shouldn't be allowed, yet it's perfectly legal and any efforts to restrict the elective portion of the procedure are consistently voted down and/or vetoed.

It's not just abortion, there's a tendency within politics in general (within the US, in any case) to look to polarize an issue instead of trying to find common ground. Why? Because fundraising doesn't do as well for advocacy groups when compromises are found. If the NRA arrounced tomorrow they had joined with the Brady lobby to establish 'common-sense' ownership and self defense laws, neither the NRA nor the Brady Foundation could expect anywhere near the level of fundraising they currently enjoy while they refuse to give an inch for 'your constitutional rights' or 'the life and health of even just one child'.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Nicely summed up, Don C.

That's one of the reasons I'm annoyed with the most recent effort at campaign finance reform. All of the efforts to keep money from political campaigns now get diverted to splinter groups who, as you rightly note, have a vested interest in cranking up the crazy factor.

[Red Peasant]

Well, then it's a shame that the country that produced the definitive masterpiece of compromise, the US Constitution, can't live up to the standards of their forefathers.

[Xiahou]

Well Dave, if you're arguing that it's largely pointless to debate these issues in an Internet forum- you may be right. On the up side though, it gives me an opportunity to research and defend my beliefs and forces me to be able to better articulate them. Also, I think many lurkers and posters alike do get shown new perspectives on issues from such debate.

I do get exhausted rehashing the death penalty and abortion over and over again though... which is why I often dont post in (or even read) those threads every single time they come up.

[Sartaq]

Don't take anything too seriously, it will consume you

[A.Saturnus]

Totally unrelated: Dave, did I ever tell you that Ecclesiastes is my favorite part of the Bible? Well that and Ezekiel 23:20-21.

[Major Robert Dump]

I really prefer you when you make jokes about dudes rubbing feces on themselves and dancing around naked, but if this is a bridge you feel you must cross then so be it

[JimBob]

Quick article that I was reminded of.

By Mickey Z.
As dogma disintegrates, hope appears

“Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.”

This statement (made by Dubya in late 2001) has been mocked by just about anyone to the left of Genghis Khan, but in 2005, I came to realize how often we all slip into that mentality…myself very much included.

For example, in the 10 years I’ve been vegan, I’ve often enforced the “you’re either with us or against us” mindset. In 2004, during the presidential election, I publicly mocked anyone who tried to find a reason to vote for Kerry. To the Anybody-But-Bush crowd, I ranted: “you’re either with us or against us.” Or, in a more general sense, I’d see someone driving an SUV into a McDonald’s parking lot, smoking a cigarette and yakking loudly on a cell phone…and I’d have that person judged, categorized, pigeon-holed, and lined up on the “other side.” (And these are only a few of far too many examples I could list.)

In turn, I’ve had variations of the “you’re either with us or against us” tactic used on me…and it’s both disconcerting and frustrating.

My personal resolution for 2006 is to not let this mentality recrudesce…to check myself before I so readily “identify the enemy,” so to speak. Of course, there are times when one can genuinely—and perhaps justifiably—feel “you’re either with us or against us.” But I submit that those instances are few and far between…much less frequent than we’d all like to believe.

If we call ourselves left or liberal or progressive or radical or any other similar label, I believe the path towards creating social change involves the realization that we can sometimes differ strongly with our allies and comrades on certain issues but still remain allies and comrades. If a disagreement or difference of opinion results in a person or group reflexively being written off, we all lose.

Howard Zinn says: “As dogma disintegrates, hope appears. Because it seems that human beings, whatever their backgrounds, are more open than we think, that their behavior cannot be confidently predicted from their past, that we are all creatures vulnerable to new thoughts, new attitudes. And while such vulnerability creates all sorts of possibilities, both good and bad, its very existence is exciting. It means that no human being should be written off, no change in thinking deemed impossible.”

An elder Cherokee Native American was teaching his grandchildren about life. He said to them, “A fight is going on inside me. It is a terrible fight, and it is between two wolves. One wolf represents fear, anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, pride, and superiority. The other wolf stands for joy, peace, love, hope, sharing, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. This same fight is going on inside of you and every other person too.” The children thought about it for a minute and then one child asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?” The old Cherokee simply replied: “The one I feed.”

Which wolf will we feed in 2006?

http://gnn.tv/articles/2010/Which_Wo...u_Feed_in_2006
Kinda left wing site, do forgive me.

[Divinus Arma]

I'm glad I took a break. I know how you feel Dave. I had to reduce my postings from like 8-15 a day to near nil. Been what? Like almost 3 months since I went to a primary lurker status in the backroom, if even that? I'm poking my head in here a little more now lately. I'm not back, just checkin it out again. And then I see this thread and think, oh great WTF?!


I just needed to leave for a while. Not forever. Its a frickin merry-go-round here. I will never sell Western foriegn policy to Tribesman. I will never sell capitalism to Jag, Zorba, or Red Harvest. But who cares. Sometimes they have good ideas that make me think differently, and sometimes (mostly) the libs all spew forth diarreah that strengthen my position and give me insight into the ignorant minority opinion.


Personally, I'm sorry to see you go soft. You sound like a hippie. Quit being a pussy and snap out of it.

:slaps Devastation Dave upside the head with a large headless fish:


But seriously, I do know how you feel. It does get aggravating.



When I start to feel frustrated with the whole political scene, I just turn on Rush Limbaugh and let the wisdom of a fatcat drug addict brilliant Republican strategist flow through my veins. Then I read the New York Times headlines for a laugh. And sometimes I'll even turn on NPR. What a hoot.



Or I'll get drunk. (which has gotten me into trouble if I come back here afterwards)

Whatever. Who cares. Edit: It's like Soly said, "Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded".

[Sartaq]

Whatever. Who cares. Edit: It's like Soly said, "Arguing on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded".

Better to be a decorated retard than just a retard or is it?

[English assassin]

Pausing for a moment I never really understood why the fact people rarely agree or change their minds is such a big deal.

Through the tavern, for instance, I have become aware in detail of the world views of various American ex-servicemen, which would otherwise have passed me by. And that is a good thing even if I don't agree with them or they with me. Also a lot of Dutch people. etc.

Abortion is a boring topic though.

[Samurai Waki]

gah! finally another neutralist! hurray for neutrality

[Strike For The South]

Personally, I'm sorry to see you go soft. You sound a hippie. Quit being a pussy and snap out of it.

:slaps Devastation Dave upside the head with a large headless fish:

seconded

[Devastatin Dave]

Bumped to show the utter hypocricy and humiliation of my being. Have at it boys, have at it, public flogging is in order and deserved.

[Redleg]

Bumped to show the utter hypocricy and humiliation of my being. Have at it boys, have at it, public flogging is in order and deserved.

You need to learn not to let certain subjects provoke you into bad behavior.

I suggest reading Goofball's, and other's comments after you have had playtime with your children, and a big hug and kiss from your wife. That way you can remember that the joy in your life is still present.

Either that or wear the tin foil hat before you read the posts in the backroom so that your brain waves are not altered by the aliens that are monitoring the internet at all times.

[Devastatin Dave]

You need to learn not to let certain subjects provoke you into bad behavior.

I suggest reading Goofball's, and other's comments after you have had playtime with your children, and a big hug and kiss from your wife. That way you can remember that the joy in your life is still present.

Either that or wear the tin foil hat before you read the posts in the backroom so that your brain waves are not altered by the aliens that are monitoring the internet at all times.

Good suggestions all, I post mostly at work while CNN is pumped into our offices. Gues that's not exactly the most positive atmosphere.