Can I get a gay couple here?

[Weebeast]

Have you adopted a child? How's your child? I was just having a conversation with a buddy of mine and he's basically saying that gay people shouldn't adopt kids because the kids might turn gay or become 'abnormal.'

I don't know, some straight parents raise gay kids. You know what I mean?

Your help would be appreciated. I don't have gay friends with kids so I don't know anything about this.

[Lemur]

I've heard lots of claims, but you can do the reading for yourself, assuming you have a semi-useful library nearby:

Bailey, J.M., Bobrow, D., Wolfe, M. & Mikach, S. (1995), Sexual orientation of adult sons of gay fathers, Developmental Psychology, 31, 124-129; Bozett, F.W. (1987). Children of gay fathers, F.W. Bozett (Ed.), Gay and Lesbian Parents (pp. 39-57), New York: Praeger; Gottman, J.S. (1991), Children of gay and lesbian parents, F.W. Bozett & M.B. Sussman, (Eds.), Homosexuality and Family Relations (pp. 177-196), New York: Harrington Park Press; Golombok, S., Spencer, A., & Rutter, M. (1983), Children in lesbian and single-parent households: psychosexual and psychiatric appraisal, Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 24, 551-572; Green, R. (1978), Sexual identity of 37 children raised by homosexual or transsexual parents, American Journal of Psychiatry, 135, 692-697; Huggins, S.L., (1989) A comparative study of self-esteem of adolescent children of divorced lesbian mothers and divorced heterosexual mothers, F. W. Bozett (Ed.), Homosexuality and the Family (pp. 123-135), New York: Harrington Park Press; Miller, B. (1979), Gay fathers and their children, The Family Coordinator, 28, 544-52; Paul, J.P. (1986).

[Beirut]

Hmmmm... Backroomish. Poor guy will be attacked by the anti-gay crowd though. Best of luck.

Well I've got lots of gay friends. I've known some for thirty years. Most are great people. Pretty much the same % of idiots to nice guys as straight people.

As far as I've ever seen, people do not "go gay"; you're born that way. On the other hand, anyone raised in a "specific" environment will obviously be affected to some degree by that environment. I do not doubt that it might lead the person to some... curiosity and perhaps, depending on the individual, experimentation. But flat out "turning gay"? I don't buy it.

Personally, I don't think gay couples should be allowed to adopt a child until all other avenues of adoption for the child have been exhausted. The child's interests come first.

To the Backroom and awayyyyyyyy...

[Efrem]

My god mother and her "partner" have a child and he is perfectly straight but completely ****** in the head cause they raised him horribly.

[Duke Malcolm]

I have an acquaintance whose mother is a lesbian and he says she had a partner until quite recently, and he seems a bit, ah, homosexual and estranged.

However, I think that having such parents is not enough to turn someone gay, perhaps give them certain opinions and tastes and manners and such, but not actually to make them want sodomy. I believe it is the environment around the child until the end of puberty which affects whether or not the child will end up gay.

[Lanemerkel1]

instead of stating my oblivious hatred for gay people, I think I'll just stay out of this thread

[Strike For The South]

Im not really sure about this. I mean there are tons of hardworking honest gay people out there most of whom would make excellent parents. On the other hand it has to mess with the kids head somewhat. Although Ive known some pretty messed up kids with straghit parents so I say yes

[Ianofsmeg16]

instead of stating my oblivious hatred for gay people, I think I'll just stay out of this thread

Y'know, i don't get why people hate gays, my god! They're different! Let's all hate them, i know some gay guys, they are perfectly alright, and 99% of them dont come on to guys they know arent gay, so whats the problem?

But Kudos on staying out of the thread and not starting a flame war against gays

[Slyspy]

instead of stating my oblivious hatred for gay people, I think I'll just stay out of this thread

Failed on all counts then!

I am not entirely happy with the thought of a gay couple adopting a child. I worry for the child, though I cannot state quite why.

[Lentonius]

youre either born gay or straight, end of


but i spose as long as you are a kind person it doesnt really matter...

[Geoffrey S]

Not as far as I know. As Beirut said, the kid's interests should come first, but there's no real reason why a gay couple should be worse at raising a child. In general, I'd think it'd mean they'd grow up more open-minded to the possibility than actually becoming gay themselves, which is a good thing in so many ways.

[Redleg]

Hmmmm... Backroomish. Poor guy will be attacked by the anti-gay crowd though. Best of luck.

Well I've got lots of gay friends. I've known some for thirty years. Most are great people. Pretty much the same % of idiots to nice guys as straight people.

I agree - my uncle was one of the greatest people I knew growing up and he was homosexual.

As far as I've ever seen, people do not "go gay"; you're born that way. On the other hand, anyone raised in a "specific" environment will obviously be affected to some degree by that environment. I do not doubt that it might lead the person to some... curiosity and perhaps, depending on the individual, experimentation. But flat out "turning gay"? I don't buy it.

I don't buy the your born homosexual arguement because most of the same reason's you don't buy the "turn gay" arguement. I have seen to many practicing bi-sexuals and those who chose to pracapate in homosexual behavior to buy the genetic arguement for homosexuality.

Personally, I don't think gay couples should be allowed to adopt a child until all other avenues of adoption for the child have been exhausted. The child's interests come first.

Agreed - a homosexual couple who are willing to devote their attention to a child is better then the state foster or orphanage systems that most un-abopted children end up at. But it should be after all tradtional coubles have been rejected or exhasuated in the adoption process. (in all fairness I think the adoption process for traditional couples needs to be tightened also, to insure the child is going into a safe environment.)

[Goofball]

Agreed - a homosexual couple who are willing to devote their attention to a child is better then the state foster or orphanage systems that most un-abopted children end up at. But it should be after all tradtional coubles have been rejected or exhasuated in the adoption process. (in all fairness I think the adoption process for traditional couples needs to be tightened also, to insure the child is going into a safe environment.)

I'm glad to hear that you are not totally opposed to gay couples adopting Red. But I disagree that straight couples should be given preference. Gay or straight couples should be held to the same standards when determining whether or not they are allowed to adopt. Mainly: can they provide a safe, loving, and financially secure environment for a child.

[Marcellus]

I'm glad to hear that you are not totally opposed to gay couples adopting Red. But I disagree that straight couples should be given preference. Gay or straight couples should be held to the same standards when determining whether or not they are allowed to adopt. Mainly: can they provide a safe, loving, and financially secure environment for a child.

Agreed.

[Ironside]

instead of stating my oblivious hatred for gay people, I think I'll just stay out of this thread

I've to say that this is one of the better misspellings I've seen for a while

As for the issue, I cannot say that I'm not 100% for the idea for gay couples adopting, but I'll say that good parents matters much more than the parents sexual orientation.

[Beirut]

I don't buy the your born homosexual arguement because most of the same reason's you don't buy the "turn gay" arguement. I have seen to many practicing bi-sexuals and those who chose to pracapate in homosexual behavior to buy the genetic arguement for homosexuality.

My mother knew my brother was gay when he was three. That's a bit young for a lifestyle choice but old enough for a parent to see certain character traits.

I have no doubt that many people experiment and some are influenced by their environment, but I've know way too many gay men to ever think that it was a lifestyle choice. These guys were gay from Day 1.

I'm glad to hear that you are not totally opposed to gay couples adopting Red. But I disagree that straight couples should be given preference. Gay or straight couples should be held to the same standards when determining whether or not they are allowed to adopt. Mainly: can they provide a safe, loving, and financially secure environment for a child.

I disagree.

The interests of the child must come first. If we are going to experiment with social ideas/programs/revolutions giving full rights to gay couples, fine. But let's not use children in the experiment.

The benefits to a child of having a mother and a father are too obvious and numerous to state. There are waiting lines to adopt children, so there should be no need to involve them in "social experiment". If gay couples want kids, they can create them with other partners and have shared custody. Never should a child be handed over to two gay men or women when a mother and father are waiting in the wings.

Having a mother and father is normal. Having two fathers or two mothers is not. The child has the right to have a mother and a father. The gay couple's rights to adopt a child do not overide the rights of the child to a mother and father.

[Kralizec]

I agree with Beirut, only let a gay couple adopt a kid if there aren't any suitable straight couples. Maybe in 20-30 years we'll have more insights on how gay couples manage to raise kids and we can reconsider.

[Scurvy]

im sure there as many (in %) bad gay parents as their are straight ones, but it must be more difficult to grow up, especially with the amount of anti-gay behavior you get in schools etc.

[doc_bean]

Parents screw their children up most of the time anyway, so I don't have a big problem with a gay couple raising a kid on principle. However, being pragmatic, it's going to be a little weird for the kid to have two daddies or two mommies, and it will be one more obstacle they'll need to overcome (on a lesser scale than being orphans or given away at birth I'd imagine though).

So, tough criteria should be used for selecting parents, and homosexuality shouldn't matter much.

[Redleg]

My mother knew my brother was gay when he was three. That's a bit young for a lifestyle choice but old enough for a parent to see certain character traits.

My wife just "knew" her oldest son was gay from about age 4. Turns out that he isn't.

Ancendentol (SP) evidence is just that.

I have no doubt that many people experiment and some are influenced by their environment, but I've know way too many gay men to ever think that it was a lifestyle choice. These guys were gay from Day 1.

Again you have just supported my arguement about why I don't believe its a "born" into condition. Your first statement supports my postion on that. This is why I will not support homosexuals as a protected class. If they wish to practice that lifestyle - no harm no foul as far as I am concerned. As far as getting laws passed for their benefit in society they must go through the same legislative process that every other individual must go through. When a scientist can demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that homosexual behavior is a genetic condition that an individual is born into - then I will advocate them being a distint and therefor a class that must have protection against discrimination under the law.

Back on topic

The interests of the child must come first. If we are going to experiment with social ideas/programs/revolutions giving full rights to gay couples, fine. But let's not use children in the experiment.

The benefits to a child of having a mother and a father are too obvious and numerous to state. There are waiting lines to adopt children, so there should be no need to involve them in "social experiment". If gay couples want kids, they can create them with other partners and have shared custody. Never should a child be handed over to two gay men or women when a mother and father are waiting in the wings.

Having a mother and father is normal. Having two fathers or two mothers is not. The child has the right to have a mother and a father. The gay couple's rights to adopt a child do not overide the rights of the child to a mother and father.

Agreed.

I have absolutely no problem allowing homosexual couples to adopt a child if a suitable tradtional couple can not be found. (Suitable in my eyes means the same for both the traditional family and the same-sex family. Both types of couples must meet the same criteria for adoption, the difference is that given a choice between the two, the child goes to the traditional couple.)

[Goofball]

I'm glad to hear that you are not totally opposed to gay couples adopting Red. But I disagree that straight couples should be given preference. Gay or straight couples should be held to the same standards when determining whether or not they are allowed to adopt. Mainly: can they provide a safe, loving, and financially secure environment for a child.

I disagree.

The interests of the child must come first. If we are going to experiment with social ideas/programs/revolutions giving full rights to gay couples, fine. But let's not use children in the experiment.

(Prepare yourself, I'm about to be slightly sarcastic, but I know you're a big boy and can handle it.)

I realize that treating people as equals and offering them a level social playing field regardless of their sexual orientation is a pretty wacky "social experiment," but don't you think that maybe its time has come?

Okay, sarcasm off.

Your argument (no to be mistaken with you) offends me for a few of reasons.

1) It says that it's okay to discriminate against gays because we have always done so in the past, and not discriminating them is a "revolutionary" new idea that we should take slowly. Based on that logic, should we not allow employers to fire homosexual employees, in order to improve workplace harmony by not offending the sensibilities of more conservative employees?

2) There is no basis whatsoever to make a claim that same-sex couples are any more likely to be unfit parents than hetero couples, and there is no evidence to suggest that having opposite-sex parents is any more or less beneficial to a child than having same-sex parents. On the other hand, I can come up with a considerable amount of data that would support the idea that children raised by black parents are more likely to become criminals than children raised by white parents. Should we also give preference in adopting based on skin color? And your statement about what is "normal" is just silly. In the thirties, it was more or less "normal" for a husband to blacken his wife's eye for her if she didn't mind her manners. Luckily, several wacky "social experiments" since then have changed that custom. (Okay, I know I said sarcasm was off, but I couldn't resist that one.)

im sure there as many (in %) bad gay parents as their are straight ones, but it must be more difficult to grow up, especially with the amount of anti-gay behavior you get in schools etc.

There is already considerable evidence that a good portion of heterosexual couples make a complete balls-up of raising their children. Should we outlaw all heterosexual couple adoption for thirty years or so until we can do an in-depth study to determine what kind of people are more likely to be good parents vs. bad parents so thet we may more properly screen applicants?

im sure there as many (in %) bad gay parents as their are straight ones, but it must be more difficult to grow up, especially with the amount of anti-gay behavior you get in schools etc.

This is my favorite argument of all.

"We shouldn't let gay couples adopt because if we do, the rest of us will continue our narrow-minded, cruel ways and discriminate not only against the gay couple themselves, but against the child they adopt as well. Hey, don't blame me, blame society."

EDIT: Incorrect use of "you're" vs. "your." I can't believe it. One of my biggest grammatical pet peeves and I did it myself. See what you do to me Beirut?

[Don Corleone]

I'm going to break another PC taboo, be a sexist and state that I view lesbians and gay male couples as completely different on this particular issue. I have far fewer issues with a lesbian couple adopting a baby then I do with 2 gay males.

[AntiochusIII]

I'm going to break another PC taboo, be a sexist and state that I view lesbians and gay male couples as completely different on this particular issue. I have far fewer issues with a lesbian couple adopting a baby then I do with 2 gay males.

And it would greatly help your position if you explain why. I can grasp some possible reasons for myself but to make an assumption of what you think isn't going to be very prudent of me.

For now, though, Goofball hits every point.

[Goofball]

I'm going to break another PC taboo, be a sexist and state that I view lesbians and gay male couples as completely different on this particular issue. I have far fewer issues with a lesbian couple adopting a baby then I do with 2 gay males.

What are you trying to do to me Don? Give me an aneurism?

I can only deal with so many meritless statements at once.

[TB666]

I say they should be allowed to adopt.
I think they can do the job just as good as straight couples.

especially with the amount of anti-gay behavior you get in schools etc.

Indeed, and that won't change anytime soon either unless they see that there is nothing wrong with it.
That's why it is time to show them that it isn't.
With time it will change just like allowing black people to go to class with white people.

[Redleg]

1) It says that it's okay to discriminate against gays because we have always done so in the past, and not discriminating them is a "revolutionary" new idea that we should take slowly. Based on that logic, should we not allow employers to fire homosexual employees, in order to improve workplace harmony by not offending the sensibilities of more conservative employees?

A Strawman arguement my dear Goofball, the care and raising of children does not equate to an individuals ability to perform their job. I but into this conservation because I happen to agree with Beriut about adoption.

2) There is no basis whatsoever to make a claim that same-sex couples are any more likely to be unfit parents than hetero couples, and there is no evidence to suggest that having opposite-sex parents is any more or less beneficial to a child than having same-sex parents. On the other hand, I can come up with a considerable amount of data that would support the idea that children raised by black parents are more likely to become criminals than children raised by white parents. Should we also give preference in adopting based on skin color? And your statement about what is "normal" is just silly. In the thirties, it was more or less "normal" for a husband to blacken his wife's eye for her if she didn't mind her manners. Luckily, several wacky "social experiments" since then have changed that custom. (Okay, I know I said sarcasm was off, but I couldn't resist that one.)

Your throwing a red herring into the arguement Goofball. Address the issue of same-sex couples and traditional couples to bring forth your premise. Traditional families have been shown to be the preferred method of child rearing, regardless of the color of thier skin.

There is already considerable evidence that a good portion of heterosexual couples make a complete balls-up of raising their children. Should we outlaw all heterosexual couple adoption for thirty years or so until we can do an in-depth study to determine what kind of people are more likely to be good parents vs. bad parents so thet we may more properly screen applicants?

Is that a counter to the arguement that a traditional family is the preferred family unit for child rearing for a healthy society?

"We shouldn't let gay couples adopt because if we do, the rest of us will continue our narrow-minded, cruel ways and discriminate not only against the gay couple themselves, but against the child they adopt as well. Hey, don't blame me, blame society."

I don't believe that is the stance Beriut nor myself have taken on the issue. Edit: I see that was directed at someone else. Sorry for the mis-reading of the statement.

[Don Corleone]

Maybe I should take my foot out of my mouth. What statistics I was looking for turned out to be the opposite of the conventional wisdom I had adopted.

Apparently, gay men in Scandanavia and the Netherlands divorce at roughly the same rate as heterosexual couples. I thought it was higher among gay male couples.

I also thought lesbians were more stable in committed relationships then heterosexual couples. Turns out, they get divorced more frequently.

Okay then, I'm for allowing gay male couples to adopt, but until lesbians figure out how to provide some domestic permanence for their children, I think they should be last in the priority queue for adoption.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Again you have just supported my arguement about why I don't believe its a "born" into condition. Your first statement supports my postion on that. This is why I will not support homosexuals as a protected class. If they wish to practice that lifestyle - no harm no foul as far as I am concerned. As far as getting laws passed for their benefit in society they must go through the same legislative process that every other individual must go through. When a scientist can demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that homosexual behavior is a genetic condition that an individual is born into - then I will advocate them being a distint and therefor a class that must have protection against discrimination under the law.

While I agree with you that it isn't a born into or genetic condition, there is another possibility besides it being a lifestyle choice that you have to look at. I personally believe it's something that develops from outside influences when the person is quite young. Many aspects of your personality are not finally determined until the age of seven.

[Soulforged]

If we accept as a principle that being gay is good, because it's a personal election (or for other several causes that people differ), then why should it be an issue that the sons raised with gay parents will make them gay. I see no reason, even if they had that effect that people usually attach at them (usually by ignorance) it wouldn't be an issue wouldn't it?

[Don Corleone]

Now here, in a nutshell, is exactly what people are afraid of. Soulforged is arguing that even if gay parents will make their children gay, it's a good thing and we should encourage it.

I don't know Goofball, you sure you want him on your side?