Peltast vs archers

[orangat]

Ah that makes sense. I was beginning to wonder what was the point of keeping peltasts since they run out of ammo quickly and have a short range.

[econ21]

I was beginning to wonder what was the point of keeping peltasts since they run out of ammo quickly and have a short range.

Um, I fear in vanilla they are a pretty pointless unit. I'm not sure about Oaty's point - the "swing speed" of both units is the same, so I'm not clear why peltasts should do damage more quickly. I can't say I've observed them having a higher rate of fire.

By contrast, in some of the mods, they are very useful. In RTR, peltasts used to be lethal against phalanxes and in EB, I like them as classical skirmishers - taking fire, distracting enemy etc. Archers have rather different functions in the mods - including as the "anti-peltast" unit.

[Reenk Roink]

They are definitely underpowered in vainlla, but not as much as the archers are overpowered. Sometimes I take a unit of Mercenary Peltasts or Illyrian Skirmishers to use against hoplites, but anything weaker, or against any non-phalanx unit (barring Elephants and Chariots) you're better off without them.

[orangat]

Um, I fear in vanilla they are a pretty pointless unit. I'm not sure about Oaty's point - the "swing speed" of both units is the same, so I'm not clear why peltasts should do damage more quickly. I can't say I've observed them having a higher rate of fire.

By contrast, in some of the mods, they are very useful. In RTR, peltasts used to be lethal against phalanxes and in EB, I like them as classical skirmishers - taking fire, distracting enemy etc. Archers have rather different functions in the mods - including as the "anti-peltast" unit.

I just tested them in 1 unit vs 1 unit custom battles against Carthaginian town militia, cheap cavalry and elephants. The velites were totally useless. The javelins didn't seem more potent but the biggest shortcoming was range. I didn't bother with chariots.

[x-dANGEr]

Javs are just deadly to eles. It is like saying what's better Numidian Mercenaries or HA? I tell you Numidian Mercenaries if you're facing eles and HA if you're not.

[RemusAvenged]

I would think that peltasts would be more important as in ancient times skirmishing was a MAJOR element of battle. The ability of a light quick screen to harass the enemy and draw off some of thier units was very important.

I think TW does a bit of a poor job with them since they are so important. However I still like to keep some on hand as a good balance. Most non-Roman units don't have a nice close artillery option, one that gives charging enemies a second thought before and after closing. Plus they can sneak around the back of an enemy and attack from their unprotected rear. They can also charge other artillery units and send them running and can chase down slower retreating enemies. Then as Simon Appleton says you can always sacrifice them to buy time against really powerful units.

So while they are not a main line or death dealing archer they are versatile have some use, (and are CHEAP).

[Oaty]

Um, I fear in vanilla they are a pretty pointless unit. I'm not sure about Oaty's point - the "swing speed" of both units is the same, so I'm not clear why peltasts should do damage more quickly. I can't say I've observed them having a higher rate of fire.

By contrast, in some of the mods, they are very useful. In RTR, peltasts used to be lethal against phalanxes and in EB, I like them as classical skirmishers - taking fire, distracting enemy etc. Archers have rather different functions in the mods - including as the "anti-peltast" unit.

Not my fault the A.I. will run around with missile units when they are in range of something. Due to the A.I. using it's skirmishers in inproper fashions can cause the concept of making a unit look stronger than it really is. I guess what mad the javelin units seem stronger to me then what they really were was because ovewr 50 percent of the time I'm hitiing moving units with my javelins making them seem tougher.

Another good use is to park them in the back of an engaged unit when the way is clear and unleash all there javelins

[Watchman]

The peltasts don't quite perform up to their historical standards because A) battlefield control in the TW series is on the average light years beyond what historical armies had to deal with B) their nasty effects on shields and the like (ie. the tendency of javelins to pretty much pass straight through most of the time) isn't in C) both the AI and human players prefer to run the little buggers down with cavalry before they hurt too much, where their short range becomes a severe problem and this also ties to A) because historical cavalry didn't have quite as easy a time dashing to and fro as needed across the battlefield. Most of the time they didn't have any more clue of what was happening beyone their immediate vicinity than anyone else either, so while they might quite well trample the skirmishers near them that wasn't much of a help to the guys dying of javelins two hundred meters to the right...

That said, I think they're good to use as a first wave to absorb the pila of assorted units you'd rather not have skewering more armoured (and expensive) units, worrying chariots and elephants, shooting up infantry and chasing routers if cavalry isn't available. In other words, cheap, cheerful and expendable. Good archers tend to do better most of the time, but hey, there's a reason javelin-toting light infantry went out of military fashion long before bowmen... Nevermind now that most of the time the javelineers were "better than nothing" troops who couldn't afford the training and gear to be effective in other ways.

[Gealai]

Most of their relative weakness in RTW is due to the small battlefield and the heavier use of cavalry in it. No steep hills and little rought terrain, high speed units and too long aiming cycle. In such conditions and the added troubles of the Ai it is hard to use them effectively, and in the MP they are doomed to stick close to a heavy unit. They seem also to lack the deadliness of MTW times, where they could wreak hovoc even on heavily armored units, as they don't posses the AP ability anymore.

Yet against the stupid A.I they can shine, especially if it is phalanx-based. With a little micromanagement they can harass very efficiently and deal with the enemy units one-by-on. They are not bad chasers too. EB makes them better.

Gealai

[Somebody Else]

Incidentally, peltasts and suchlike were responsible for the defeat of a force of Spartiates, and indeed the capture of 120 of them... nothing quite like being reduced from the most feared soldiers in Greece to a cowering PoW by a peasant with a few pointy sticks... In the rocky terrain of Greece, they proved far more useful in the Peloponesian war than the hoplites ever did.

In game though, they're pants. Unless they're Illyrians, in which case they can act like poor quality legionnaires... Javs are handy to disrupt a formation for a brief while, but unless they can follow up... nah. Archers can inflict casualties over range for a longer period of time. One's a steady battle winner, one might swing the occasional result.

[Taurus]

I find peltasts to be very useful in MP if you are going for a rush type army. In the rush role the purpose of the peltasts is to be placed in front of your main infantry line and take any fire from any enemy archers (if they have any) on your advance, then once they get close enough they can pepper the enemy archers or any other targets you see fit or even just run straight into melee in which they can be backed up by your main line. I don't use peltasts much but for the times I have used them they have proved to be very useful indeed.

[Avicenna]

Incidentally, peltasts and suchlike were responsible for the defeat of a force of Spartiates, and indeed the capture of 120 of them... nothing quite like being reduced from the most feared soldiers in Greece to a cowering PoW by a peasant with a few pointy sticks... In the rocky terrain of Greece, they proved far more useful in the Peloponesian war than the hoplites ever did.

In game though, they're pants. Unless they're Illyrians, in which case they can act like poor quality legionnaires... Javs are handy to disrupt a formation for a brief while, but unless they can follow up... nah. Archers can inflict casualties over range for a longer period of time. One's a steady battle winner, one might swing the occasional result.

If you mean Sphacteria, it was archers that murdered the Spartiates. Peltasts could easily be gotten rid of: chasing them, giving the the choice of:
A) continue shooting and get cut down
B) engage in melee and get cut down anyway
C) run
all three options are good for the Spartiates