Peltast vs archers

[econ21]

Can I use peltast/velites up on the walls if i am under siege. Can they fire from up there?

Yes - they can fire down.

[Avicenna]

Incidentally, peltasts and suchlike were responsible for the defeat of a force of Spartiates, and indeed the capture of 120 of them... nothing quite like being reduced from the most feared soldiers in Greece to a cowering PoW by a peasant with a few pointy sticks... In the rocky terrain of Greece, they proved far more useful in the Peloponesian war than the hoplites ever did.

In game though, they're pants. Unless they're Illyrians, in which case they can act like poor quality legionnaires... Javs are handy to disrupt a formation for a brief while, but unless they can follow up... nah. Archers can inflict casualties over range for a longer period of time. One's a steady battle winner, one might swing the occasional result.

If you mean Sphacteria, it was archers that murdered the Spartiates. Peltasts could easily be gotten rid of: chasing them, giving the the choice of:
A) continue shooting and get cut down
B) engage in melee and get cut down anyway
C) run
all three options are good for the Spartiates

[Ludens]

If you mean Sphacteria, it was archers that murdered the Spartiates. Peltasts could easily be gotten rid of: chasing them, giving the the choice of:
A) continue shooting and get cut down
B) engage in melee and get cut down anyway
C) run
all three options are good for the Spartiates

The problem for the Spartiates is that a guy with a small pelte is going to be faster than a guy with a big hoplon. Result: the Spartans lose formation, get tired and are thus extremely vulnerable to the not-so-tired, nimble javelineer.

[Avicenna]

The problem for the Spartiates is that a guy with a small pelte is going to be faster than a guy with a big hoplon. Result: the Spartans lose formation, get tired and are thus extremely vulnerable to the not-so-tired, nimble javelineer.

Of course, you have to take the training of the Spartiates into account. The Spartiates were trained from seven to be the perfect warriors: this includes training up their strength, cunning, dexterity, and stamina.

[Ludens]

Of course, you have to take the training of the Spartiates into account. The Spartiates were trained from seven to be the perfect warriors: this includes training up their strength, cunning, dexterity, and stamina.

Yes, but we are talking about speed here. Stamina or no, you cannot run fast with a hoplon. That is why it was always discarded when soldiers routed.

[orangat]

Of course, you have to take the training of the Spartiates into account. The Spartiates were trained from seven to be the perfect warriors: this includes training up their strength, cunning, dexterity, and stamina.

All the cunning and stamina in the world cannot make up for the fact that they are lugging about nine foot spears, armour and a big shield. Peltasts can run away and pelt them to death at leisure.

[Avicenna]

nine foot? that was the macedonian spear. the hoplite spear was much shorter.

[orangat]

nine foot? that was the macedonian spear. the hoplite spear was much shorter.

Huh? The Macedonian spear or sarissa is longer than the hoplites spear (at approx 9 feet). Regardless the hoplite's heavy armour and greaves would be a severe disadvantage in terms of speed no matter how well conditioned the Spartans were.

[Watchman]

Sarissae tended to be in the 5-6 meter range (15-18 Imperial feet, approx.; even longer ones were tried by the Diadochi by what I've read, but weren't worth the hassle). True pikes, in other words, and rather useless outside ordered formation. The spears used by the hoplites were of the pretty standard international pattern of long one-handed fighting spears, in the 2-3 meter range, and obviously way more manageable.

There's apparently a fair bit of debate about when, in what form, how effectively and/or if at all the "light hoplite" concept was used; but I've read the Spartans and following their example many others discarded virtually all body armour to be better able to chase down annoying peltasts and generally improve formation mobility (as a plus decidedly more men could afford to fight as hoplites when they didn't have to possess the fairly expensive body armour). The "Iphicratean" hoplite reform apparently went along the same lines, but replaced the spear with a fair bit longer one to make up for the lightened harness.

'Course, that's a bit controversial issue too.

Entirely aside from whether hoplites in lightened gear could actually catch peltasts, there's the issue that in many situations they quite possibly simply could not afford to break ranks in pursuit as that'd have left them sitting ducks to enemy heavy infantry... any enemy cavalry present would also most likely have been only too happy to pick on the now rather more vulnerable spearmen, too.

[Avicenna]

Sarissae tended to be in the 5-6 meter range (15-18 Imperial feet, approx.; even longer ones were tried by the Diadochi by what I've read, but weren't worth the hassle). True pikes, in other words, and rather useless outside ordered formation. The spears used by the hoplites were of the pretty standard international pattern of long one-handed fighting spears, in the 2-3 meter range, and obviously way more manageable.

There's apparently a fair bit of debate about when, in what form, how effectively and/or if at all the "light hoplite" concept was used; but I've read the Spartans and following their example many others discarded virtually all body armour to be better able to chase down annoying peltasts and generally improve formation mobility (as a plus decidedly more men could afford to fight as hoplites when they didn't have to possess the fairly expensive body armour). The "Iphicratean" hoplite reform apparently went along the same lines, but replaced the spear with a fair bit longer one to make up for the lightened harness.

'Course, that's a bit controversial issue too.

Entirely aside from whether hoplites in lightened gear could actually catch peltasts, there's the issue that in many situations they quite possibly simply could not afford to break ranks in pursuit as that'd have left them sitting ducks to enemy heavy infantry... any enemy cavalry present would also most likely have been only too happy to pick on the now rather more vulnerable spearmen, too.

I think the Spartans got rid of all armour apart from hoplon and helmet for a while before their downfall.. as a stab from an enemy hoplite was probably lethal anyway, with or without the cumbersome armour

[Watchman]

Not by what I've read - AFAIK armour came back in fashion later on. The bigger issue was probably just the damn peltasts and their javelins; I've read those things are *very* good at going through things like shields and armour, and it's obviously tactically somewhat unviable to stand there in nice ordered ranks in nifty expensive armour if a bunch of beggars with javelins whom you cannot catch due to the bulk of your gear cheerfully murder you despite it.

[Gealai]

Javelins are great for piercing - it's most basic physic:

Wiki

If an object is moving in any reference frame, then it has momentum in that frame. The amount of momentum that an object has depends on two variables: the mass and the velocity of the moving object in the frame of reference. This can be written as:

momentum = mass × velocity

When you compare the momentum of a heavy pila with a standard wararrow from a reconstructed ancient turkish bow - similar in efficiency to the best modern recurves the following comes out:


The calculation:

a) The bow + arrow: 75.5lb @ 28", war bow, 49" long; 1067 grain, 155.1 fps
(http://www.atarn.org/islamic/akarpow..._bow_tests.htm)

b) A 0.5 kg javelin

Momentum-Arrow = 0.06914 kg x 47.27448 m/s
MomentumA ~ 3.27 kg m/s

To achieve the same Momentum the javelin must be thrown with a velocity of 6.54 m/s or 21.45 fps - a low velocity.


However we must take into account that the javelin blades where usually quite larger than the arrowheads, thus having more resistance. So simply spoken depending on the mechanical advantage/ area of the blade we get different velocities needed to achieve the same penetration. Given that a wide blade can easily increase the needed velocity by a factor of 5 (~32 m/s needed!!!)it is understandable that almost all javelin warheads were quite narrow.

If we take that formula it is surprising how well it explains the concept of the heavy pila. 2kg combined with a small pyramidical head ~ 2 times larger than the bodkin arrowhead equal the great bow-arrow combo with a velocity of only 3.27 m/s or 10.7 fps


Calculating all that stuff and seeing the effect of pilas or narrowbladed heavier javelins on well reconstructed shields I know for sure that I don't want to get hit by them at close range...

Gealai

[Watchman]

In the museums it tends to be pretty easy to tell the javelin-heads from the spear-heads - the former tend to be all slim and narrow. Even the barbed ones. And we all know what the factor "lots of momentum" does when paired with "really small area", don't we ? I understand many historical armour-piercing arrow/-head designs were intentionally made heavy, trading effective range for sheer momentum and penetrative capability.

I've read javelins tend to fly so slow, and are so easy to see coming, that people with room to maneuver (ie. specifically *not* heavy infantry in combat order...) tend to have little trouble dodging them though. Apparently javelineer skirmisher duels tended to be exercises in frustration, with very little results on either side. Javelins against close-order troops, on the other hand, were just nasty...

[Avicenna]

Ludens:
Thucydides (greek historian) wrote a famous passage (4.34.3) stating that the Spartans suffered against the Athenian archers, 'for their piloi(helmets) did not keep out the arrows.'

[Ludens]

Thucydides (greek historian) wrote a famous passage (4.34.3) stating that the Spartans suffered against the Athenian archers, 'for their piloi(helmets) did not keep out the arrows.'

Quite so, but we were discussing the effectiveness of Hoplites against javelineers. Incidentally, all the writers I have read (which are admittedly not that many) considered Sphacteria a victory of peltasts over elite hoplites.