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Thread: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

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    Default What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Research comfirming the date and existence of the reinstatment of the lykugian regime, and how it affected the spartan soldier including throughout EB timeframe.


    The end of Sparta

    After the battle of Chaeronea (338 BC) Phillip of Macedon marched through the Peloponnese, welcomed by all the cities but when he reached Sparta they refused him to enter. Phillip did not try to take by force the city and left. Sparta was the only Greek city that did not take part in the League of Corinth, which was formed in 337 BC, under Macedonian control.
    In 331 BC, king Agis, the grandson of Agesilaos, raised a revolt against Macedonia, but he was defeated and killed.
    In the end of the 4th century BC, Sparta build a wall for the first time in her history, which was enclosing its four central villages and Acropolis.
    When in 280 BC, the Celts invaded from the north overrunning Macedon, king Areus of Sparta, who had tried to unite the cities of Peloponnese, led an army into central Greece. During his reign the first coins of Sparta was issued, three hundred years later from the rest of Greece.
    In 272 BC, king Pyrros of Epeiros could easily have taken the city after defeating the Spartans. Sparta became a dependency of Macedon, regained independence under the tyrants Machanidas (207 BC) and Nabis (195 - 192 BC).
    In 265 BC again, having formed an alliance with Athens, Achaea and Elis and some Arcadian cities, gave battle against Macedon but lost it and in his retreat was killed (Chremonidean war).
    The son of Areus, Akrotatos, in 260 BC leading the Spartan army against Megalopolitans, he was defeated and himself killed.
    In 244 BC, Agis IV came to the throne and starting a series of changes. He proposed all debts to be cancelled, and to redistribute all land, in parts of 4500 citizens and 15000 Perioikoi. He also insisted on strict Lykurgian training in the citizens for the remained 700 equals (omioi) and 2000 hypomeiones and selected perioikoi. He found in his proposals strong resistance and Agis was put in trial and executed in 241 BC.
    The next king of Sparta Kleomenes III, began to reign in 236 BC. He married the widow of king Agis and also tried to impose his ideas. In 227 BC, in a revolt he killed four ephors and exiled eighty of his opponents. That it was the first time the ephorate was abolished in Sparta. He then redistributed the land into 4000 lots and perioikoi as well as hypomeiones occupied them. He also started to enforce the Lykurgos training and habits, under the guidance of his friend philosopher Sphairos. All these changes brought results and Kleomenes had many military successes. Argos and most of Argolid and eastern Arcadia was conquered.
    The Achaean league under Aratos of Sikyon, with the promise of giving him back Corinth, allied with king Antigonos of Macedon and recovered Argos and several Arcadian cities. In his turn Kleomenes captured and destroyed Megalopolis (223 BC).
    In 222 BC, at Sellacia, between Sparta and Tegea, a battle took place. The Spartan army was numbering 10,000 and that of Antigonos and his allies 30,000. At this long and horrid battle, Spartans fought bravely. The whole Spartan army fell, except 200 men. King Kleomenes fled to Egypt.
    The following years, a series of revolts started at Sparta, king's ephors were killed or exiled.
    In 206 BC, the tyrant Nabis, a descendant of Demaratos, who had fled in Persia in 490 BC, took the throne. An able but ruthless man, he confiscated the properties of the wealthy and gave them to the poor. By setting free slaves, he managed to acquire an army of 10,000 men and he also extended his social reforms to Argos. It was Nabis who foreseeing the incoming dangers fortified Sparta for the first time in her history.
    When the Roman commander Flamininus invaded Laconia and laid siege to Sparta, after a few days of fighting a non honorable truce was accepted by Sparta, in which was loosing all the Perioikic cities on the coasts and her fleet.
    Later with the pretence of helping Sparta, the Aitolians sent a thousand soldiers to kill Nabis and secure Sparta. They managed to kill him but they all were massacred from the Spartans. After Nabis assassination, Sparta was forced by Philopoemen to become a member of the Achaean league. Her walls were razed and the laws of Lykurgos repealed.
    Under the Romans in the 2nd century AD, Laconia as a province of Achaea was allowed to revert to a Lykurgian regime.
    In 396 AD, the city was destroyed by Alaric.
    In the 9th century AD, the Slavs invaded and the population was forced to migrate to Mani.
    The Byzantines refound a town and named her Lacedaemonia but her importance had been lost by 1248 AD and disappeared from history totally, by 1834 AD.
    Today the city of modern Sparta occupies the very same territory of the ancient city.

    Perhaps the Spartans in EB should go through reforms much as the romans do.

    Also, wikipidia lists the following;

    Spartans continued their way of life even after the Roman conquest of Greece. The city became a tourist exhibit for the Roman elite who came to observe the "unusual" Spartan customs. Purportedly, following the disaster that befell the Roman Imperial Army at the Battle of Adrianople (378 AD), a Spartan phalanx met and defeated a force of raiding Visigoths in battle. There is, however, no genuine evidence of this occurring.

    When the romans reinstated the Lykugian regime in 2nd Cent A.D., it is possible perhaps probable that the previous mentioned info might well be fact.




    Thanks, EL
    Last edited by EdwardL; 09-26-2006 at 07:12.

  2. #2
    Member Member Kampfduck's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    isnt this a sort of double posting?
    there is already a discussion going on about sparta,
    see topic: the spartans.

  3. #3
    Guest Dayve's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Good read none the less... Thanks edward.

    The city of Sparta was destroyed though? Why? That's a crime to history... Dirty smelly slavic hordes.

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    Not Just A Name; A Way Of Life Member Sarcasm's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    The city of Megalopolis was destroyed though? Why? That's a crime to history... Dirty smelly Spartan hordes...







    jk



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    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    It's not like there was much at Sparta anyway.
    History is for the future not the past. The dead don't read.


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    Guest Dayve's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Not much at Rome either, few crumbled buildings, that's about it... Not much in Egypt... Few triangle shaped structures... That's about it... Lets destroy them... Thousands of years of fascinating history but... There's not much there anyway.

    Anyway... Why did they destroy megalopolis? Was there any good reason or just because they enjoyed slaughtering people and burning houses like the barbarian hordes did?
    Last edited by Dayve; 01-12-2006 at 19:12.

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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Keep in mind that Megalopolis was just built to piss the spartans off. The Thebans finally defeat the spartans and then free the Messenians and synoicize some of the area around there to form Megalopolis itself as a barrier to spartan expansion northwest and a counter to any one group in the Peloponnese getting too much stronger than the other (after all they can't keep a force there all the time to hold down one people like the spartans had done to the messenians for all those years before).

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    Guest Dayve's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    If you play with fire you get burned... Simple as that.

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    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    I think I detect a bit of bais here.

    Anyway, I meant there was never much at Sparta in terms of urban infrastructure.
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    "Audacity, always audacity!" Member Simmons's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Lots of sharp pointy things not many poems.

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    VOXIFEX MAXIMVS Member Shigawire's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    And lots of cruel and opressive fascism.

    You know, Polybius was a powerful figure in Megalopolis.


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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Quote Originally Posted by Shigawire
    You know, Polybius was a powerful figure in Megalopolis.
    It's a very pretty and isolated place today. You can sit in the slope of their theater - one of the largest in all of greece, but there's little left of it. A river went right through the middle of town, and has eaten away at parts of it, but you can easily see their bouleterion at the foot of the theater, and some of the stoas have columns reerected. Nice wheat fields cover most of the rest of the site (when I was last there). Very calm and quiet beautiful place.

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayve
    Not much at Rome either, few crumbled buildings, that's about it... Not much in Egypt... Few triangle shaped structures... That's about it... Lets destroy them... Thousands of years of fascinating history but... There's not much there anyway.
    I think what QWERTY meant was that the Spartans didn't have many buildings that would have survived to this day anyway. Sparta was a group of villages on the Spartan plain. They weren't a builder civilisation, and besides a few temples very little archeological evidence remains of their glory.
    Thucydides:
    Suppose the city of Sparta to be deserted, and nothing left but the temples and the ground-plan, distant ages would be very unwilling to believe that the power of the Lacedaemonians was at all equal to their fame.

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    Guest Dayve's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Really...? My image of Sparta has just been shattered... I imagined a large city full of concrete buildings like many the Romans had and like other cities in Greece... What a disappointment... I wish i hadn't found that out... Curse you!

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    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    When the Spartans couldn't rely on their Helots they couldn't focus purely on their martial skills any longer. Bad for them, since their ability to fully focus on warfare whilst leaving the rest of the duties to their slaves is what allowed them to become such a unique power.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

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    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    It wasn't so much that they could trust/rely on their helots before; heck, most of their constant military training (aaarrrggh!!!) was aimed at keeping the helot down. The labor of the helots allowed the Spartans to focus on their military abilities, and those abilities ensured the subservience of the helots...so sad...

    Anyway, it would be very cool if the KH could institute a Lykurgan system in Sparte as some sort of reform. Maybe start Sparte off as a colony as well, and then its up to the player whether to upgrade to a type 1 Lykurgan system in Sparte, and that could lead to unique Spartan units unavailable in non-Type 1 governments? There might be a better way to do that I suppose, but its an idea, and would be really risky for the player to do, but would (with good Spartan units at least) pay nice dividends.
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    yes its a good idea..matter of fact its the same idea i had in the first post :P great minds think alike w00t. Also if its not too much to ask for a color change to KH.. orange seems a little timid, although the RTW cream was just as bad, heh

  18. #18

    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Quote Originally Posted by paullus
    It wasn't so much that they could trust/rely on their helots before; heck, most of their constant military training (aaarrrggh!!!) was aimed at keeping the helot down. The labor of the helots allowed the Spartans to focus on their military abilities, and those abilities ensured the subservience of the helots...so sad...
    I cant imagine how people tend to ignore facts they dont like. Sparte was no a cruel fascist rule! Fascists wanted to be seen as Spartans to grab some of theire glory.

    Helots werent treated worse than tousends of slaves in other city states. Athenians also lived from the slave workforce, but that were Athenians who wrote history... sad but true.

    Sparta didnt let outsiders to get its citizen status, also you had to be very rich to be homoios - how the true spartans were called. Many wars especialy Peloponesian and later against Thebes made Sparte to lose a lot of true citizens, so the lands consolidated in few families.

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    EB Token Radical Member QwertyMIDX's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    The way the Spartans treated the Messenians actually seems to have been somewhat harsher than the way other Greeks treated their slaves. The point is that the system is different though not that one is worse than the other. It demanded different adaptations on the part of the Spartans than what most other greeks went through.
    Last edited by QwertyMIDX; 01-16-2006 at 04:07.
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    Member Member paullus's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    While slavery is slavery, that doesn't change the fact that the Spartan relationship with the Messinians was often a form of state oppression in addition to individual owner-property oppression. Helots may have, in some ways, and aside from the times when things were bad, had a better life than the transplanted, bought and sold slaves in other places, what with the pastoral life and all...

    Oh, and I'm not sure what brought on the whole fascism comment, though perhaps I shouldn't be getting my ancient history from David Irving?
    "The mere statement of fact, though it may excite our interest, is of no benefit to us, but when the knowledge of the cause is added, then the study of history becomes fruitful." -Polybios


  21. #21

    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Yeah, there's not anything else that we have extant that shows anything like the extreme treatment the spartans gave the messenians. Granted it was mostly recorded by biased folks anyway, but still you can tell they thought it was extreme (though they probably hadn't seen what hell was really like for those poor chaps in Laurion either). It's the only time I know of that greek slavery got close to that american south slavery too - in the way that it's a whole group (a division of an ethnicity) that was treated this way, not just folks who had a bad day and had their city sacked or got nabbed on the beachside somewhere.

  22. #22
    Gentleman and Scholar Member Mr Jones's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    i'm surprised about how many people seem to look at the spartans as some kind of ultimate greek people when they know nothing about them actually other then they were good warriors. the spartan treatment of the messenians was possibly the harshest in greece, as said before sparta was not really a city, just a bunch of buildings on a plain. the only significant thing about sparta really is their military training and prowess. they were not uber greeks.
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Well, it is interesting any time a culture or a people decide to throw away much of their past and start from scratch (sometimes all at once, or a little more slowly too)...forgetting what things were really like before then for some newly idealized version of their society and history. To be honest it always turns out pretty scary in my opinion. But then I'm a historian for the most part and it would mean folks like me wouldn't be very necessary if it became a going trend.

  24. #24

    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    I may be wrong, if yes, I'm sorry.
    I based my view on the words of prof. S. Hodkinson who visited our university last year. He tried to convince us that how we see Sparte is the effect of English historians vievs. From the Napoleonic period English historians liked to see athens as a symbol of England (trade and seapower) while Sparte as its continent enemies - first Napoleon, and then Germany. And when nazists started portraying themselves as the modern Spartans, it baceme even worse. Later in the Cold War Americans portrayed USSR as Spartan like, and there are some documents showing terrorist groups as Spartan like. When you see somebody as a symbol of your enemy then you can't give it any positive values.
    He also stated that Messenians were governind themselves to some (small) extent, and the reason that writers say they were threated so bad is that writers believed that you can't do with once free nation same thing you do with slaves.
    I remind you also that Attike was united with fire and sword, also all those Athenian so called allies that were destroyed by "good democracy" sometimes because they just wanted to be neutral.
    I just imagine what Athenians would do to Syracusans, if they had captured the city.

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  25. #25

    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    I remind you also that Attike was united with fire and sword, also all those Athenian so called allies that were destroyed by "good democracy" sometimes because they just wanted to be neutral.
    Attica was united by force what evidence is there for that? Even if it was the case, it would not change the fact that everyone in Attica became Athenians equally, while at Sparta, only Spartans were citizens, while the vast majority of Laconians were reduced to non-citizens or helots. On the destruction of allies I suppose you must be referring to the (mostly) the Peloponnesian war. It seems something less than fair to use Athenian actions in a long drawn out total war as an indication off their general policies. Many allies did not revolt, and they did largely ask Athens to lead the Delian league unlike Sparta’s allies and in her harshest actions Athens was usually only following the trail blazed by Sparta.

    By the remaining neutral comment I assume you to refer to the Melian Dialogue. But let’s just step back a bit: Athens had in fact allowed Melos to be neutral from decades, presumably out of respect for Sparta and a desire to maintain the peace agreed after the first Peloponnesian war. Consider what that means, Melos paid no monies to Athens, sent no ships or soldiers to the League, but gained absolute security from invasion and pirates for free. Yet when war did come Melos could neither actively maintain her neutrality (the Spartans used Melos as a stop on their way to Lesbos), and in fact appears to have actively proved money to the Spartans. In other words Melos had been allowed to be neutral but demonstrated neither the ability to be neutral in fact, nor show a desire to remain neutral. Given the logic of total war, the comparatively weak position of the post plague Athens, and Sparta’s repeated demonstration that it would only adhere to agreements when it was easy and convenient, I think the Melian affair while still a black eye for Athens is still not really the black and white incident is largely portrayed as. During World War 2 both Britain and Nazi Germany to use mass/indiscriminant aerial fire bombing, but I don’t think any rational judge would argue Nazi-Germany and Great Britain were morally equivalent.

    Athenians may have written a lot of history, but I would not be too quick to suggest some kind of pro-democratic bias. Most of the ancient historians, antiquarians and philosophers tended to have a substantial bias against democracy and the hoi-polloi, and as such Sparta often benefits from something of a whitewash. Consider Thycidides for example, we get a long drawn out discussion of Melos or Lesbos, but do we see a similar expansive discussion of the debate at Sparta in the very first year of the War when Sparta summarily executed all the crews of merchant vessels traveling to or from Athens as pirates?

    Helots werent treated worse than tousends of slaves in other city states. Athenians also lived from the slave workforce, but that were Athenians who wrote history... sad but true.
    I think the evidence is against you here. Athens unlike Sparta never faced a slave revolt nor appears to have even feared one (like Chios). Under the democracy Athens was able to repeatedly depend on it slaves in times of crisis (Marathon, Persian wars, Aginusae, during the civil war against the Thirty, Chaeronea…). Slaves at Athens may have been property in one household, but were not perpetual legal classes of state reconzied or owned property as were the helots. Slaves at Athens did enjoy some legal protections, and even the ability to force a sale to a new owner, in public they were effectively equal to Metrics, and could access the commercial courts, nor did they owe any subservience to any citizen aside from those from the oikos that owned then.

    I would also dispute the ideal that Athens lived on its slave workforce. Did Athens have slaves, sure, but that pretty much sums up most of world history. Did the democracy depend on them, no more than it did on the Delian League (that is to say the radical democracy both pre-dated and outlived the league although it is often suggested it required the revenue from it to survive). Here I think people tend to all to easily be swayed by the aristocratic and idealized nature of much of the literary evidence, and ignore the tid-bits of evidence for, lacking a better term ‘working-class’ Athens.
    Last edited by conon394; 01-16-2006 at 13:45.
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    Member Member antiochus epiphanes's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    where are the spartan orgins?
    just asking cause there are alot of greek historians in here

  27. #27

    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    They were Dorian Greeks (Indo-European stock), like a lot of other poleis were. They came into Lakonia at the end of the bronze age and settled there. Here's a great summary by Cartledge:

    "The three Dorian tribes of the Hylleis, Dymanes and Pamphyloi, whose existence in Sparta is directly attested for the first and only time by Tyrtaios (fr. 19.8), almost certainly joined forces before the long march south. Their most likely point of immediate origin is the Illyrian-Epirote region of northwest Greece, which had been for the most part untouched by Mycenaean civilization; some have seen an etymological link between the names Hylleis and Illyria. But the Dorians may have been impelled and even joined by peoples from still further north. The etymology of 'Dorians' is unclear, but their alleged connection with Doris in central Greece was probably invented or at least enhanced by later propaganda from as early as the seventh century." ...They crossed through Aitolia, over the Corinthian Gulf from Antirhion to Rhion on rafts, then continued down the western Peloponnese to the Alpheios valley, across to the headwaters of the Eurotas and finally along the Eurotas furrow to Sparta. The date of the settlement in Sparta is open, but archaeology indicates a terminus post quem of c. 950. They conquered nearby Amyklai in the early 8th century then. The remnant of the Mycenaean population is most plausibly the origin of the Lakonian Helots (the Messenian ones came a little later).

  28. #28

    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    Thanks for lots of info!
    I have to assume that the lecturer I mentioned in the last post have to be biased towards Sparte :) (or even very biased)

    This is the main problem with history - you just can't check anyting and people tends to interpret the same facts differently. And this is one of the things that make history so interesting
    Last edited by O'ETAIPOS; 01-16-2006 at 18:55.

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  29. #29
    Member Member Ace Cataphract's Avatar
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    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    In the defense of the Spartans' treatment of the Messenians, it's not as if they treated themselves much better. They were harsh people. They were the ultimate survival society. Spartan babies had to be born strong just to be allowed to live, Spartan children soon had to endure hard training of their own, Spartan teens were expected almost to be adults, Spartan adults were expected to be almost demi-gods, and they were very much a survival of the fittest society. For the Helots, at least their babies weren't exposed to the wilderness if they were considered too weak, but in truth, their masters didn't have a much easier life at all than they did.

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  30. #30

    Default Re: What became of the Spartans 338 B.C. - 1834 A.D

    yes, the spartans themselves were as much a slave as the helots they enslaved.

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