Hajj stampede

[Geoffrey S]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4606002.stm

It seems like this kind of thing happens year after year during the Muslim holy days. Why is it that despite so many disasters due to the huge flow of people it happens time and time again? What is it that seems to make it impossible to regulate the flow of people, to impose some kind of order on the crowd? I'd have thought there must be some way to prevent this from happening, but almost every year it's the same horrible tragedy.

[Slyspy]

If you can regulate a crowd of two million people all intent on doing their religious duties then perhaps you can apply for a job in crowd control.

[Don Corleone]

You have 3 million people there, all trying to get into a tight courtyard between sun-up and sun-down. It's unfortunate, but certainly more understandable then a stampede, with casualties, over say a Cabbage Patch Kid or whatever the next 'it' toy is.

Very sad, as the Hajj is supposed to be the pinacle of one's religious life. It'd be the rough equivalent of a devout Roman Catholic getting an audience with the Pope at the Vatican, and the family back home learning that he was shot by the Swiss Guard on his way into the room. My sympathies.

[LeftEyeNine]

If you can regulate a crowd of two million people all intent on doing their religious duties then perhaps you can apply for a job in crowd control.

That sums it up.. That worship gets people thorugh some trance-like mood. I find it nearly impossible to make an organization that will avoid any casulaties in such a condition.

[Reenk Roink]

From what I'm told, Muslims don't see it as a tragedy dying in their pilgrammage, but as martyrdom...

[Don Corleone]

You don't really expect me to believe that an Indonesian mother or a Bosian father are perfectly happy that they'll not see their son in this life ever again. I'm sorry, grief is far too universal a human concept to buy that.

[LeftEyeNine]

From what I'm told, Muslims don't see it as a tragedy dying in their pilgrammage, but as martyrdom...

That's true.. Dying during this religious ritual -as any other incidents initiated on religious feelings- are counted as martyrdom.

[Don Corleone]

Well, I stand corrected. Apparently my empathy (clearly I don't feel the same things, so sympathy is not the right word) was misplaced. Amazing, if my son or daugher was trampled to death, even in a religious festival of great import, I'd be deeply grieved.

[Ser Clegane]

Amazing, if my son or daugher was trampled to death, even in a religious festival of great import, I'd be deeply grieved.

But grief and matyrdom are not mutually exclusive, I would think

[Don Corleone]

All I'm saying is I would be grief stricken. If the victims' families aren't, their hearts don't work like mine.

[zukenft]

Well, of course everyone would be grief-struck if one of their relative is dying, especially in a faraway land, but it is the realisation that they are dying while fulfilling their duty that made it acceptable...

Although I can't say that death by stampede is my dying way of choice.

[Papewaio]

They would feel in a similar way to the family of a soldier who died saving his mates, or a cop in the line of duty, or a fireman dying rescuing people or many others who die in what we term a good cause.

The family would feel grief for sure, but they would probably be rationalising the idea that the person died in a good way.

[GoreBag]

All I'm saying is I would be grief stricken. If the victims' families aren't, their hearts don't work like mine.

Your heart pumps blood.

[LeftEyeNine]

I hope this does not turn into a "religious vs. atheists" debate.

[Don Corleone]

It needn't turn into one at all. I simply said I felt bad for the families, and people said that the families didnt' mind all that much. Then people said while the families were grieving, they were probably soothed by the fact that it happened in religious diligence. I may not agree with Islam, but I can certainly understand the idea of honorable death, and the human in me can certainly feel bad for those families that lost a loved one. Sheesh.

[Major Robert Dump]

Um, this happens with Christian and Hindu pilgrimages and festivals too.

Someone should sell tickets, it could be like Running With The Bulls except you dodge religious people jibberjabbing and waving incense. I would totally get trampled on purpose to impress my friends.

[rory_20_uk]

Hell's bells it's God's Will isn't it?

As you say it's been happening for years now. Everyone knows it's going to happen and yup, it does.

I rate it right up there with being told about a Gangland shooting in California: predictable, frequent and of no relevance to the rest of the world.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Someone should sell tickets, it could be like Running With The Bulls except you dodge religious people jibberjabbing and waving incense. I would totally get trampled on purpose to impress my friends.

Pah! A real man would go right into the middle of the crowd and then pull out a Bible and Cross!

Crazed Rabbit

[doc_bean]

All I'm saying is I would be grief stricken. If the victims' families aren't, their hearts don't work like mine.

I think the families are probably grief-stricken, it's like a good christian going to heaven. The family *knows* he's gone to a better place but they still mourn.

[Viking]

Your heart pumps blood.

Studies show that it also might be able to store stronge memories, somehow. Not confirmed though.

[bmolsson]

You don't really expect me to believe that an Indonesian mother or a Bosian father are perfectly happy that they'll not see their son in this life ever again. I'm sorry, grief is far too universal a human concept to buy that.

Most on haji are old, very old. They don't have any parents and are often rather weak for a trip like this, which also contributes to the high casualty rates in these incidents.

[Leet Eriksson]

the bad habits of shoving and pushing are the #1 reason.

The government has decided to build a bridge to fix this problem, but i say they also need to hand out some chill pills so people would stop pushing and shoving others.

[AntiochusIII]

Pah! A real man would go right into the middle of the crowd and then pull out a Bible and Cross!

Remember to wear pink.

But I still wonder how many will actually try to kill you for that. Most'll probably look ludicrous and ask you if you're coming to the right church. Of course, if you start shouting at them how they're infidels then you're naturally suicidal.

Most on haji are old, very old. They don't have any parents and are often rather weak for a trip like this, which also contributes to the high casualty rates in these incidents.

Interesting...

So..

Have you ever been on the Hajj before, bmolsson? Or Faisal? If yes, how is the experience?

[Reenk Roink]

My sister on a umrah (sp?) which is like a mini-practice Hajj. She said it was cool.

[LeftEyeNine]

Well, you need to reach a specific level of life standards before going to Hajj. That is briefly assuring your family's wealth and comfort and being able to help the poor financially before leaving for Hajj. Therefore, the visitors are generally old people.

I know Umrah is used to define the non-obligatory Hajj visits which are committed after the first, religiously essential one.

[Leet Eriksson]

Remember to wear pink.

But I still wonder how many will actually try to kill you for that. Most'll probably look ludicrous and ask you if you're coming to the right church. Of course, if you start shouting at them how they're infidels then you're naturally suicidal.
Interesting...

So..

Have you ever been on the Hajj before, bmolsson? Or Faisal? If yes, how is the experience?

I was going to this year, if it weren't for family politics.

My wife went, for women though its an easier life, as they are more organised and have less problems, since the pushing and shoving habit is almost exclusively done by the male pilgrims. She is glad she has done it now, and not later, becuase its growing more chaotic by each passing year.

[bmolsson]

Have you ever been on the Hajj before, bmolsson?

Nope, and I don't think it will happen. I do help some relatives every year to get there. I respect religion to much to go there. I am not a good enough muslim.,,,,,

[GoreBag]

Studies show that it also might be able to store stronge memories, somehow. Not confirmed though.

Is this where I'm supposed to say that my heart is also my sarcasm detector?

[Leet Eriksson]

Nope, and I don't think it will happen. I do help some relatives every year to get there. I respect religion to much to go there. I am not a good enough muslim.,,,,,

By the way, its alright if you can't go, but you can ask for a relative to do the hajj instead of you.

Ask a local imam you trust for further information.