Secession of Quebec from Canada

[Divinus Arma]

So, what of it?

I remember there being a movement a few years back, as well as an active vote that failed.

With Quebec so culturally distinct from the rest of Canada, what is the reasoning pro/con for the movement?


Normally Canada is pretty boring to me, but I find this issue very interesting, as do I find the Canada Marijuan reform initiatives interesting as well.

[Reenk Roink]

It might be because they're more French???

[Strike For The South]

I need to build my underground tunnel to Canada

[solypsist]

not gonna happen.

[GoreBag]

Yeah, Quebec is culturally distinct, but I don't think any part of Canada isn't. Quebec may be more culturally distinct than other provinces as a whole, but, as I see it, not enough not to be Canadian (despite the efforts of many).

[Byzantine Prince]

Normally Canada is pretty boring to me, but I find this issue very interesting, as do I find the Canada Marijuan reform initiatives interesting as well.

Normally Canada is pretty exciting to me ebcause we have good healthcare and most people share good values. Also our economy is really strong and that will be good for my pocketses. We also have some of the most beautiful in the world.

I find this separatist utterly stupid and pointless, and I hope to god we could just finally forget about it all as one of those really repetetive dreams. It IS exciting at first, but it get's old and annoying just as fast trust me.

[Divinus Arma]

Normally Canada is pretty exciting to me ebcause we have good healthcare and most people share good values. Also our economy is really strong and that will be good for my pocketses. We also have some of the most beautiful in the world.

I find this separatist utterly stupid and pointless, and I hope to god we could just finally forget about it all as one of those really repetetive dreams. It IS exciting at first, but it get's old and annoying just as fast trust me.

Are you in Quebec? And where is Beirut?

[UglyandHasty]

So, what of it?

I remember there being a movement a few years back, as well as an active vote that failed.

The separatist movement is still going strong. So far we had 2 referendum(1980-1995), both failed but by a close margin. We might have one in the next two years if the Partie Québécois is elected.

With Quebec so culturally distinct from the rest of Canada, what is the reasoning pro/con for the movement?

The fact is we are distinct. So the Separatist want the Quebec to be a nation. Some feel the need to separate from Canada because we were invaded by the British, and as a conquered People we have been rule and treated very harshly(Ex. until a few decaded ago, you had to speack english to work for the government). Like the need to repair an injustice. Some feel the interest of the Quebec will always fell second to the interest of the Ontario and the english majority. Some feel that Canada was found by two People, the English and the Frenchies, so they want Quebec word to count as an equal, not as a Province. Wich is denied of course, as the 10 Province are equal in the Confederation, even if Quebec hasnt signed the Constitution. In brief, Separatist are Nationalist. Some can have fancy explanation, but it all come to nationalism.

Personnaly, i am against a separation. I am proud to be Quebecer and to speack french. My family is on Quebec soil for 400 years now. Quebec is my Country, but i am also proud to be Canadian. I believe our union with the rest of the Canada can work. It need some tune-up of course, like a reform of the Senate chamber but it can work.

I guess its not easy to understand for everybody, but it make sense for me.

Normally Canada is pretty boring to me, but I find this issue very interesting, as do I find the Canada Marijuan reform initiatives interesting as well.

I just hope they dont legalize the stuff. If they do, the quality will probably fall, and the cost will raise... I like the way it is now.

Sorry for the short answer, i am a man of few words who's in a hurry Wich isnt a good combination for explanation...

[Beirut]

Right here.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with Soly. There is a very good chance that it will happen. We came within a hair of it back in '95. Less than 1% of the vote won it for our side. The separatists resorted to intimidation at the polls, illegal voter disqualification, and outright vote tampering and they came close enough to their goal to scare the piss out of everybody.

The separatist leaders are very, very good at convincing the people that they are oppressed and willing to resort to any means that will help them achieve their goal. As it stands, 40% of Quebecers support separation at any time. All they need is a lit fuse to get the other 11%.

If they do succeed, the one consolation is that they will not get the entire territory of Quebec. It's too big for them to control by force and even if they do win, there will be millions of people who will not want to go along with their new country (like me) and who will refuse to leave (like me) - that means partition of the province. That could lead to an ugliness not seen in North America in a long time. The separatists will want Montreal since it's the jewel in the crown. The problem is that Montreal, by and large, will not want to separate. One "solution" has been to divide the city right down the middle (Hello? Berlin?) but the separatists will never agree. Bombs and gunshots might follow, it's happened here before.

More than likely if there is separation, the province will be carved up after months if not years of negotiations into two parts; the province of Quebec and the republic of Quebec. The province will want to get on with life and get back to business. The republic will seethe and fume and spend the next fifty years blaming everything on Canada. Just like they do now.

One thing though, throughout all of this the Americans will play a heavy role. The US will make it extraordinarily clear that if there is even the threat of a disruption to the power supply heading south, shipping on the St-Lawrence, or if violence takes place too close to the border, heads will roll in a big, big way.

This benefits the federalist side in the debate. If the native Cree up north get too pissed off at the separatists (there is a long hatred between the separatists and the natives over land and resource rights)), all they have to do is threaten to bring down the major hydro lines heading south from James Bay in the winter and the US will squeeze the separatists like jello. The idea of millions of Americans freezing in the dark in January because of trouble up north will not sit well with the powers that be in the US.

[lars573]

I'm with Beirut. But I've personally always though that the partition would be the entire south shore of the Saint Laurence, and the north shore west of the Montreal stay in. The problem that many seperatists don't see is the large numbers of people that don't want to leave, again like Beirut said. Also younger Quebequois (I think I spelled that right my French isn't what it should be ) don't see the point of seperating.


Add to that, UglyandHasty, Quebec is not unique in being ignored by Ontario. You in Quebec have at least Montreal. You should try and walk a kilometer in a my Maritimers or Newfie sow-wester. All 4 atlantic provinces could be eaten by a giant sea monster and Ontario wouldn't do much more than say "Good for the lazy bastards".

[UglyandHasty]

Unfortunately I have to disagree with Soly. There is a very good chance that it will happen. We came within a hair of it back in '95. Less than 1% of the vote won it for our side. The separatists resorted to intimidation at the polls, illegal voter disqualification, and outright vote tampering and they came close enough to their goal to scare the piss out of everybody.

The separatist leaders are very, very good at convincing the people that they are oppressed and willing to resort to any means that will help them achieve their goal. As it stands, 40% of Quebecers support separation at any time. All they need is a lit fuse to get the other 11%.

Funny. There was more intidation and illegal fraud coming from the Federal and the Liberals scums in the last referendum than any fraud coming from the Sovereignist in ten years.

Beirut when you talk about the Quebec and Canada, we can see your red shirt and underwear glowing through the screen.

[UglyandHasty]

Add to that, UglyandHasty, Quebec is not unique in being ignored by Ontario. You in Quebec have at least Montreal. You should try and walk a kilometer in a my Maritimers or Newfie sow-wester. All 4 atlantic provinces could be eaten by a giant sea monster and Ontario wouldn't do much more than say "Good for the lazy bastards".

I cant/wont argue with that. Its true.

I loved my vacation in the Maritimes Provinces btw. People were nice, i especially liked the Prince edward Island. New Brunswick is too crowded to my liking.

[lancelot]

Maybe its time for the motherland to return and establish order...

The 'Dominion of Canada' sounds so much cooler than just 'canada' anyway! Plus the Dominion flag was cooler too.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

you can't break up the second largest country in the world, just think of all the new encyclopedias you would need, why does no one ever think of the encyclopedias!

On a serious note if you break up the country the Québécois will have to pay to set up a whole new goverment, they would need a new army, navy ect and then there is the cost of deciding where to seperate and buying out people who don't want to break away. Is it realy worth it?

[Crazed Rabbit]

On the plus side, if Quebec seperated, we could invade a very French like country without leaving the continent!

Crazed Rabbit

[Goofball]

Right here.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with Soly. There is a very good chance that it will happen.

I'll clarify one thing here:

There is a very good chance that Qeubeckers might vote to seperate given the same dishonest seperation question posed previously, but very little chance that it will be accepted by the rest of Canada and allowed to happen. This is because of the Clarity Act.

In past seperation referendums, the seperatists have basically been trying to fool Quebeckers. I've tried to find it but haven't been able to again, but there was a poll done just before the most recent referendum in Quebec, and the results (from memory, so forgive me if you find the real thing and I'm wrong on some points) were something like:

* Most Quebeckers believed that if they seperated they would still use Canadian currency.

* Most Quebeckers believed that if they seperated they would no longer have to pay Canadian taxes, but would still receive transfer payments from the Canadian government on the same level they currently do.

* Most Quebeckers believed that if they seperated they would still have the support of the Canadian military when needed, and that Canadian military bases in Quebec would remain in place.

* Most Quebeckers believed that if they seperated, there would still be completely free trade between Canada and Quebec, just as though they were still considered the same country.

There were a whole bunch more, and it highlighted the dishonesty of the seperatists because this is the crap they were trying to sell to the rest of the Quebec populace. That dishonesty was reflected even in the actual referendum vote question itself:

"Acceptez-vous que le Québec devienne souverain, après avoir offert formellement au Canada un nouveau partenariat économique et politique, dans le cadre du projet de loi sur l'avenir du Québec et de l'entente signée le 12 juin 1995?"

Translated, that asks:

"Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

Very nice and touchy-feely, isn't it.

Due to the Clarity Act, referendum initiators can no longer use such a question when proposing to seperate from Canada. They have to ask in black and white, "Do you think Quebec should seperate and cut all national ties with Canada?"

Polling data has shown that when the question is put to them that way, Quebeckers really don't think seperation is so hot of an idea.

[Duke Malcolm]

Surely here Quebec cannot leave Canada without consulting Britain...?

[Lanemerkel1]

So, what of it?

I remember there being a movement a few years back, as well as an active vote that failed.

With Quebec so culturally distinct from the rest of Canada, what is the reasoning pro/con for the movement?


Normally Canada is pretty boring to me, but I find this issue very interesting, as do I find the Canada Marijuan reform initiatives interesting as well.

would someone care to give me a link?

[Goofball]

would someone care to give me a link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum

[Lanemerkel1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum

hmmm


what about this recent Secession and the Parliament overthrowing? (my mom wants me to email her at work with links)

[Meneldil]

I think there was a thread on this topic only a few weeks ago.
Anyway, the quebecois separatists seem to be as mentally dishonest as the anti-EU french people.
Oddly enough, although I know a lot of French Canadians (coolest people on earth IMO ), I never ever met an independantist one. I wonder how in hell nationalists could win a referendum.

[UglyandHasty]

The problem with your nice disertation Goofball, is that the Assemblée Nationale du Québec dont recognize that Clarity Act. Wich is in my opinion bullcrap(that Clarity Act).

You say trying to fool, we dont have more stupid people than anyone else. It was clear to everyone that if the Referendum pass, they had (the PQ) to negociate with Canada to stay in the Confederation before anything else. But i'm pretty sure they would not have negociated of good faith. They wanted a governemtn equal to the Federal governement. Simple as that. Of course that would not have work with the Chrétien and his thiefs at the helm.

And you talk of the separatist being dishonest, when its your Liberal governement who have cheated and lied. They cheated with our money and are still arrogant. Its their fault if the separatism isnt dying a slow death.

You are trying to make them pass for the crooks, when they have done more for social justice than any governement on any level in that country.

[UglyandHasty]

Surely here Quebec cannot leave Canada without consulting Britain...?

hehehe good one !

[Goofball]

hmmm


what about this recent Secession and the Parliament overthrowing? (my mom wants me to email her at work with links)

Not quite sure what you're asking about. The most recent attempt at secession was 1995, which is the link I posted.

If you are asking about our upcoming federal election (which is looking like it will be the equivilant of overthrowing the existing "rulers" in our parliament), that takes place this month on the 23rd.

[Duke Malcolm]

hehehe good one !

I was being serious...

[Marcellus]

Why would Quebec have to consult Britain to leave Canada?

[Duke Malcolm]

Because the union of the States of Canada is in British law, as is all Canada's power...

[Divinus Arma]

Very interesting guys! Thanks for the discussion so far.

Some clear lines being drawn here. I never knew this much about the topic.


So, politically, what are the leaning of the sovereignists compared with the Federalists? Meaning, who is economically conservative/liberal and who is socially conservative/liberal? Are they essentially the same with the only dividing issue being constitutional sovereignty?

I know that Canada is far more socialist than the U.S., is that the case with both the sovereignists and the federalists?


Also, is all of Quebec freezingly miserable? Is there anywhere that is even close to a temperate climate?

Thanks.

[Krypta]

Why would Quebec have to consult Britain to leave Canada?

It doesn't, King Malcom is just being condescending . If he knew anything about Canada, he wouldnt make such routinely idiotic statements.

I was being serious...

Problem is nobody takes you seriously.

[Duke Malcolm]

No need to be so snappy, Krypta.
I simply thought that since it is British Acts of Parliament which unite all of Canada, these acts would have to be amended.