First impression/ suggestions

[Big_John]

what i dont understand is...why take a great mod, do everything u can to make it look bad, when these guys have spent time making it great..when you could jus shut up n go play another mod or mod vanilla to the way that u want?

'tis but among the great mysteries of the interweb. ponder not too long, ye, for thy brain may hurteth for for it, as doeth mine.

[fallen851]

Firstly, there is only one known occasion of Alexander's compagnion cavalry beating a phalanx from the front and that was the Theban Sacred Band. In the battles against Persia, he always used hammer & anvil tactics where the mercenary hoplites where pinned by the Macedonian phalanx and the compagnions came in from the side.

Secondly, one pike against one horse it not going to make much of an impression, I agree. However, eight pikes (as they have multiple ranks and stand in a much denser formation than the charging horsemen) will. Especially if the horse is unable to manouvre due to being hemmed in on both sides by other horses. Also, the horse will probably be discinlined to impale himself. Lastly, a bright pikemen will put the but on the ground and let that take the blow.

No doubt a frontal-cavalry charge on a phalanx would have been much more messier for the pikemen than R:TW implies, but close-orders spear always were the bane of shock-cavalry.

Important to mention is the fact that calvary did not charge alone also, so get a couple of cars come at you. Still try getting 8 people or whatever to stop a car. My point is the first line of horses, even if you did take them down, would oblierate any spears the hoplites/pikemen held and would rip them out of their hands. That is basic physics, it is like a car smashing into the phalanx... the calvary would now be so close it would (and destroy so many spears) force the phalanx to use their swords.

Horses will do anything the rider tells them to do, as long as the ground is solid. They will run into another horse, hit a pole, whatever. Only when they literally can't see the ground or are unsure of the terrain will they stop (this is why if you lay down a horse won't run you over, the horse is unsure about its footing).

You do mention something important, that pikemen can put their pikes on the ground, this is why the Swiss pikemen were so effective. I don't see examples of this in the ancient world though... especially if they held a shield in the other hand, (Swiss pikemen didn't [don't?]) it would be simply ineffective.

Lastly, both battles of Persia and as I found out the battle of Gaugamela (spelling...) he went directly into the Phalanx, in fact one battle his calvary plus light troops took on a phalanx held and won. I'll quote my sources later.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Horses will do anything the rider tells them to do, as long as the ground is solid. They will run into another horse, hit a pole, whatever. Only when they literally can't see the ground or are unsure of the terrain will they stop (this is why if you lay down a horse won't run you over, the horse is unsure about its footing).

I'm pretty ignorant about this, but I've read some good stuff by Keegan "Face of Battle" about Waterloo and he's pretty adament that horses will absolutely not charge directly into a unmoving wall of men. That's why the charges of squares rarely work - unless a horse is killed by a shot and slams into the men, creating a gap which others then plow through. Interesting to know which is right.

[Kull]

Keegan

[Warlord 11]

Important to mention is the fact that calvary did not charge alone also, so get a couple of cars come at you. Still try getting 8 people or whatever to stop a car. My point is the first line of horses, even if you did take them down, would oblierate any spears the hoplites/pikemen held and would rip them out of their hands. That is basic physics, it is like a car smashing into the phalanx... the calvary would now be so close it would (and destroy so many spears) force the phalanx to use their swords.

Horses will do anything the rider tells them to do, as long as the ground is solid. They will run into another horse, hit a pole, whatever. Only when they literally can't see the ground or are unsure of the terrain will they stop (this is why if you lay down a horse won't run you over, the horse is unsure about its footing).

You do mention something important, that pikemen can put their pikes on the ground, this is why the Swiss pikemen were so effective. I don't see examples of this in the ancient world though... especially if they held a shield in the other hand, (Swiss pikemen didn't [don't?]) it would be simply ineffective.

Lastly, both battles of Persia and as I found out the battle of Gaugamela (spelling...) he went directly into the Phalanx, in fact one battle his calvary plus light troops took on a phalanx held and won. I'll quote my sources later.

After some research, I found he did charge the Phalanx at Gaugamela. He did so, though, at a weak point created by the Bactrian Satrap attempted encircling maneuver.

[QwertyMIDX]

Well TA, for example at the Battle of Grandson the horse of Charles's cavalry refused to charge the front of a pike formation both times it was tried.

You do mention something important, that pikemen can put their pikes on the ground, this is why the Swiss pikemen were so effective. I don't see examples of this in the ancient world though... especially if they held a shield in the other hand, (Swiss pikemen didn't [don't?]) it would be simply ineffective.

Ummm, the Macedonians used both hands, the shield was supported mostly by a neck strap allowing both arms to weild the sarissa. Do you think they could hold a 6-8 meter pike with 1 hand? What do you think the butt spike was for? The fact that you don't know that kind of damages your credibility with respect to the way the makedonian phalanx functioned.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Keegan

?
John Keegan - "The Face of Battle"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/014...lance&n=283155

Is he questionable to some? Not sure I understood.

[MeroFromVero]

Is he questionable to some? Not sure I understood.

It read to me like "Keegan" was a response to your comment: "Interesting to know which is right."

I could be wrong though.

[PSYCHO V]

I don't quite understand how you can say that someone reducing the armor rating of Gaesatae is making them realistic. It isn't like back then there was a book that said: "Gaesatae have an armor rating of 5". That isn't realistic, nor is it historical, or even in the spirit of historical study to propose than arbitary system based on "defence rating" and "charge bonus" and such could actually represent the battlefield.... just like mathematics. Now mathematics for the most part happens to represent what goes on in the world, but as I said, the system used has many problems when applied to reality..

lol.. given that you just previously stated your belief that ..

"..it isn't like back then there was a book that said..."..

..I'm curious. What are you basing your

"reality"

on?


We believe we have the system pretty darn close, esp on the likes of the Gaesatae... but we never claimed to be perfect, so if you wish to help us out and give some convincing data....we're all ears.

I don't know how anyone can do that, it certainly doesn't explain the myriad of battles that would have turned out differently if real life was based on the arbitary system used in RTW or any of its mods.

Rather arbitrary opinion there. I'm sure a myriad of battles would have turned out differently if they had of had a re-run of the actual battle on the day.

...this is a game.

Ah shucks..too much credit. Did you really believe we'd make EB so good you'd be transported back in time?
In any case, have you tryed it? .. the game ..that is, not 'going back in time' ?
Been doing some testing and I have to say, I'm very please with the way it plays.

my2bob

[King of the dutch]

Hello

uuuuuhhh.....As i have no knowledge of the macedonian phalanx this might be ridiculous but wouldn't it be impossible to stick you're spear in the ground if you have to keep it level with the oncoming cavelry. In fact only the back row who keep their spears diagnally would be able to stick 'em in the ground.

And Qwert: if someone doesn't know something or hadn't thought about it you don't have to attack their 'credebiliy' right away. It's not a political debate. See if i'm right on the above wouldn't that hurt you're credibility? I see this more when someone disagrees. I thought these forums/threads were to learn from each other not being very lofty about credibility and not answering questions half the time.

grtz kotd

[O'ETAIPOS]

I'm pretty ignorant about this, but I've read some good stuff by Keegan "Face of Battle" about Waterloo and he's pretty adament that horses will absolutely not charge directly into a unmoving wall of men. That's why the charges of squares rarely work - unless a horse is killed by a shot and slams into the men, creating a gap which others then plow through. Interesting to know which is right.

Teleklos are you sure that it was horses who were afraid of charge?

I'd rather say that riders didnt want to die and they didnt want to be shot for cowardity after battle so they just said that the horses don't want to charge.
Or horses were not trained enough.

Some example:

Somossiera pass in Spain. Only one road forward to Madrid. Few meters wide road with stone walls on both sides. 4 artillery placements on the road with infantry support (2,2,2,4 guns if I remember well) One or two inf attacks just were defeated on the rocky terrain around the road. Napoleon orders 400 Polish cavalry unit to charge. They go up the road, brake through or jump over the defences, up to the highest place in pass. In the ouctome over a half of cavalrymen were dead or severly wounded but the rest were victorious.
Everything is a matter of morale and training.
If you check any of horse riding competitions you will see that horse will do everything rider wants it to do.
What is the difference in charging wall of men from the back and from the front?

Riders courage.

[Spectral]

Somossiera pass in Spain. Only one road forward to Madrid. Few meters wide road with stone walls on both sides. 4 artillery placements on the road with infantry support (2,2,2,4 guns if I remember well) One or two inf attacks just were defeated on the rocky terrain around the road. Napoleon orders 400 Polish cavalry unit to charge. They go up the road, brake through or jump over the defences, up to the highest place in pass. In the ouctome over a half of cavalrymen were dead or severly wounded but the rest were victorious.
Everything is a matter of morale and training.
If you check any of horse riding competitions you will see that horse will do everything rider wants it to do.
What is the difference in charging wall of men from the back and from the front?

Yes, but that was the exception, not the rule. If you read upon Napoleonic Wars, or other ancient wars, you will find lots and lots of occasions where cavalry, no matter how well equipped/disciplined, couldn't push through a solid line of infantry of infantry with pikes/spears/bayonets whatever.

It's funny how people will always pick some particular situations (well known for being that, exceptions, why do you think that Somossiera is so well known, or for that matter the british charge at Garcia-Hernandez where they also destroyed an infantry square ?) and tend to make them the general rule. On most of those particular occasions the mais reason why the head-on cav charge succeeded was that the enemy infantry panicked and routed in sight of the charging cav.


BTW, anyone who is saying that really hvy cav is not powerful in the game should look twice. Hetairoi are authentic tanks on the battlefield.

[QwertyMIDX]

Hello

uuuuuhhh.....As i have no knowledge of the macedonian phalanx this might be ridiculous but wouldn't it be impossible to stick you're spear in the ground if you have to keep it level with the oncoming cavelry. In fact only the back row who keep their spears diagnally would be able to stick 'em in the ground.

Sounds logical, at least intially, but every pike block of the early modern era could do despite their being people behind them, I doubt the Macedonians had any problems with it either. The reason would logically be this: if you're holding a pike with a portion of it behind your back hand (which would be necessary to wield a 6-8 meter pike) then in it's horizontal it will already extend as far backwards as it ever will, making a 45 degree angle with the group would decrease the distance behind you the butt spike was. Further, the Macedonian Phalanx was off set a bit, to allow the pikes of the first 5 ranks all to protrude beyond the first rank.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Teleklos are you sure that it was horses who were afraid of charge?

I'd rather say that riders didnt want to die and they didnt want to be shot for cowardity after battle so they just said that the horses don't want to charge.
Or horses were not trained enough.

Some example:

Somossiera pass in Spain. Only one road forward to Madrid. Few meters wide road with stone walls on both sides. 4 artillery placements on the road with infantry support (2,2,2,4 guns if I remember well) One or two inf attacks just were defeated on the rocky terrain around the road. Napoleon orders 400 Polish cavalry unit to charge. They go up the road, brake through or jump over the defences, up to the highest place in pass. In the ouctome over a half of cavalrymen were dead or severly wounded but the rest were victorious.
Everything is a matter of morale and training.
If you check any of horse riding competitions you will see that horse will do everything rider wants it to do.
What is the difference in charging wall of men from the back and from the front?

Riders courage.

As I said, I don't know a lot about it, but I seriously doubt the reason is that some riders were cowards after the battle and lied about not being able to attack a formation. Has anyone seen a rider direct a horse straight into a wall without the intent of jumping it or pulling up just shy? That's what we're talking about. Keegan says that the horse must see an opening to jump through in the ranks, one man must flinch away and open a gap, or they must be able to jump over it (not so with a wall of standing men and spears) or something (a just-struck-dead horse) must drive a gap in the wall of men. Otherwise the horse will shy or draw up just short.

[O'ETAIPOS]

I do not mean some of them were cowards. I mean they have common sense and do not want to die. Great example is charge of Light Brigade at Balakalawa. After the charge which in fact succesful reached russian line (only in wrong place) cavalrymen hadn't enough morale (better say willing to death?) to continiue H2H to victory and fled.
Only realy desperate rider could do such a thing to charge infantry head-on, but it is much easier to charge the same infantry from the back.
So head on charges were available only for such units that consist of desperates (or well protected ones, using long-shaft weapons, who think they are invincible - kataphracts, heavy knights etc)
And in fact pure cav armies could win battles - at Kircholm in 1605 Polish army of 4000 cav (3500 winged husars) completely destroyed 11000 Swedish army (but it was in fact double envelope battle not head on charge against inf)

[Ludens]

Important to mention is the fact that calvary did not charge alone also, so get a couple of cars come at you. Still try getting 8 people or whatever to stop a car.

I think I already adressed this in my previous post. Yes, there will be more than one horse, however, a charging horse needs more "elbow space" than a stationary pikeman, so there will be perhaps two pikemen for every horse. Then the pikemen will have several ranks ready, so every horse faces eight pikepoints.

The car-analogy is good in principle, but not in proportion. A car is far heavier, faster and more powerful than a horse, far better protected and most importantly, cannot fall. It will just keep on going. A horse on the other hand is made of flesh, and at best has a thin layer metal in front of him, does feel pain and can come to an abrupt stop when it falls or dies.

My point is the first line of horses, even if you did take them down, would oblierate any spears the hoplites/pikemen held and would rip them out of their hands. That is basic physics, it is like a car smashing into the phalanx... the calvary would now be so close it would (and destroy so many spears) force the phalanx to use their swords.

Basic physics also tells us that if you charge hard enough at a pointed object anchored into the ground, you will get impaled, breastplate or no. Even if the pikepoint glances off, it can still lift you out of the sadle. Now, this exersize in bravery may be survivable if it was just one wall of pikes you have to pass, but there are four, each and everyone of them capable of killing you or your horse. Sure, several pikemen will have to let go of their pikes or find them broken, but the first line of of the cavalry charged is dead or wounded.

Now, at this point the second line of horses would have an easier job were not for the fact that their path blocked by the dying horses of the first line. They either have to jump, stop or stumble (assuming that the horses are lying on the ground, but given that cavalry charges in close order they may still be falling when the second group arrives), adding only more to the chaos. Then the third lines comes in, and has to stop or else they chrash into the second line.

So in short, your frontal cavalry charge is not only going wreck the phalanx, but your first line of cavalry men as well, provided the phalanx was formed and stood their ground. If these conditions do not apply, then a frontal charge can meet with success.

Lastly, both battles of Persia and as I found out the battle of Gaugamela (spelling...) he went directly into the Phalanx, in fact one battle his calvary plus light troops took on a phalanx held and won. I'll quote my sources later.

Interesting. I always thought that at Gaugamela he first despatched the Persian cavalry and then flanked the phalanx, but then I am not an expert.

[nic]

I'm mot asking for cavalry to be an ancient super-weapon, just to have a little more shock value when they hit the flank or rear. Surley we can agree that they should be given a little more speed/weight?

[Iskandr]

Well, the only real problem I see with cavalry so far (besides not being able to recruit Heteroi yet, curses! ) is that pike have a completely fantastic ability to turn around and reface while engaged. In reality, even the best trained men, when hit from behind, are in no way ever going to rebuild the pike wall facing the opposite direction. But in the game, they can. Now, well-trained pike may form a hedgehog, and in fact the Swiss were known for this later on, but I have never read or heard of a phalanx doing so. And this tactic, of course, reduces either frontage or depth. OTOH, until the AI learns what a flank is (i.e., never) then making pike work like reality will be a losing proposition, gameplay-wise. That said, I would like to see the schiltron and shield-wall from BI, if they can fix the horrible missile vulnerabilty that schiltron has.

Iskandr

[Kull]

It read to me like "Keegan" was a response to your comment: "Interesting to know which is right."

I could be wrong though.

That's what i meant. By the way, for anyone reading this - if you haven't read "Face of Battle", BUY IT!!!! Just top notch. Before he writes about them Keegan walks the physical battlefields he's about to describe, and does a superb job with his first hand sources. Unlike many, Keegan doesn't just refer to them in the footnotes and give you his take on the battle, rather he quotes his sources and then describes why he believes their words mean "x".

So. In the context of Waterloo, the facts are there were multiple French cavalry charges, and in almost every case, the participants agree that these mass charges flowed around the British squares, not through them. And whatever people may say about the French military, these cavalrymen were fantastically brave. They rode into a hail of fire, multiple times, and made every effort to engage the infantry, but the Brits wouldn't break square (and if you think standing upright in a square for hours on end was a picnic, examine Keegan's description of "Artillery vs. Infantry" in this battle - one of the most chilling things you'll ever read). A man willing to ride a horse for a quarter mile into oncoming artillery and musket fire is not going to quail at the sight of a thin red line a few men deep - men who are NOT carrying long pikes, I might add - no, he would ride right through it except for one small detail. His horse will not go there.

One final comment. If you read the ancient authors, the sad truth is that most were not present at the battles they describe - and thus we hear through them the second and third hand description of events. So when you hear of cavalry successfully attacking a phalanx, keep in mind that we often don't know (and probably never will) the true reason for success. Did the infantry - or at least some - turn and run? Was it a flank attack. Did something disrupt the line, thus gving the cavalry access to the interior of the unit? In most cases, it's impossible to say. So we must rely on examples nearer to our time, and those are pretty close to unanimous that a cavalry charge against a solid, disciplined line of men almost never ends well for the guys on horseback.

[Kull]

Well, the only real problem I see with cavalry so far (besides not being able to recruit Heteroi yet, curses! ) is that pike have a completely fantastic ability to turn around and reface while engaged. In reality, even the best trained men, when hit from behind, are in no way ever going to rebuild the pike wall facing the opposite direction.

That may be true, but you'll have to take it up with CA/Sega. Pikeman behaviour is hardcoded - and thus EB simply plays with the cards we were dealt.

[Ludens]

I'm mot asking for cavalry to be an ancient super-weapon, just to have a little more shock value when they hit the flank or rear. Surley we can agree that they should be given a little more speed/weight?

The problem is that cavalry charge in R:TW 1.2 is bugged. Either you have cavalry able to plough through heavy infantry or you get cavalry that cannot push over a light skirmisher. EB chose the least unbalancing option. However, the switch to 1.5 should solve this issue.

[jerby]

My first impression of EB was that it wasn't great.

It hasn't changed.

Then what was wrong? EB coudl you soem constructed critisism...i think...

[Spectral]

Well, the only real problem I see with cavalry so far (besides not being able to recruit Heteroi yet, curses! ) is that pike have a completely fantastic ability to turn around and reface while engaged. In reality, even the best trained men, when hit from behind, are in no way ever going to rebuild the pike wall facing the opposite direction. But in the game, they can. Now, well-trained pike may form a hedgehog, and in fact the Swiss were known for this later on, but I have never read or heard of a phalanx doing so. And this tactic, of course, reduces either frontage or depth. OTOH, until the AI learns what a flank is (i.e., never) then making pike work like reality will be a losing proposition, gameplay-wise.

Yes, I've noticed it too and it's a shame when you make a "classical" drive through one flank of the enemy phalanx with your medium infantry ( like thureophoroi) and/or cavalry and then crash into the side or rear of the phalanx only to have them quickly turn their pikes agains it you - it is even worse when you're using only infantry to attack the phalanx IMO, making the thureophoroi sometimes quite useless.

It makes it even worse the fact that normally the AI phalanx units have better XP, which added to the bonuses given to them in h/vh battle settings (I'll never user them again!) means that all other things being equal you will lose the phalanx battle...

[Gealai]

I personally would suggest to read the following article (http://www.deremilitari.org/resource.../bachrach3.htm) about medieval horses and cavalry. Interesting is especially the part with many example about the famous frankish knights charging various enemies with very mixed success.

Of the importance of a coordinated disciplined attack:

Maintaining a cohesive mounted formation (ordinata aequaliter acies) was well recognized in the West as crucial for the effective use of mounted troops.73 Einhard's report on the defeat of a troop of Frankish horsemen by a unit of Saxons fighting on foot in the Suntal mountains illustrates, through the description of a failed attack, what could happen when a mounted force lost its cohesion and each man attacked as an individual.74 Such mistakes seem to have been easily recognized even by court intellectuals such as Einhard, who writes:

"Thus they [the leaders of the scara] decided to engage the Saxons without him [Theodoric] and took up their arms not as though they were intending to attack a prepared battle line but as if they were chasing down fugitives from behind and gathering up booty. The Saxons stood in their battle line in front of their encampment and each and every one of them [the Franks] rode at them as fast as possible. The charge was as poorly executed as the battle. Indeed, once the fighting began the attackers were surrounded by the Saxons and almost all of the Franks were killed.75 "

However even if the charge was well united and well prepared good infantry was very hard to beat:

"It is also clear that when a commander underestimated the strength or resolve of a disciplined force of men fighting on foot and hurled his horsemen, inadequately supported by foot soldiers or fire power, at such a well-positioned enemy, the result was usually disaster or near-disaster for the mounted attackers. Whether we look to the early Middle Ages at Unstruct (531), Suntal (782), or to later encounters such as Lechfeld (955), Conquereuil (992), Saint Michel en l'Herm (1014), the first charge at Pontlevoy (1016), the first few charges at Hastings (1066), Legnano (1176), Courtrai (1302), Bannockburn (1314), Morgarten (1315), Crecy (1346), and Agincourt (1415), the failure of the mounted troops is evident.56 Indeed, even at the celebrated battle of Bouvines (1214), where most scholars credit the French mounted troops with winning the victory, it is clear that the Saxon infantry was superior to King Philip's own horsemen in the center of the line. The mounted charge by the French left flank against the Brabantine foot, who withdrew after a less than noteworthy resistance, is thought by many scholars to have been the decisive phase of the battle. This retreat, however, was probably due to the duke of Brabant's duplicity rather than to the vast tactical superiority of the French horse.57"

The author points out that the medieval knights and commanders were quite learned and were not just tricked by enemy feigned retreats but also used them to their advantage:

"Both the feigned retreat and the emphasis upon the cohesive deployment of heavily armed mounted troops are well illustrated in the military operations carried out by King Henry I at Riade in 933. Henry set out to locate and engage a force of lightly armed Magyar horse-archers which had been raiding in the area of Mercerberg. Henry knew that his heavily armed horsemen could not force an engagement at close quarters because the Magyars, who were much more lightly armed, simply could outdistance his forces and, by remaining within bow range, pick off the slower-moving Saxons or, more probably, their valuable but unprotected horses. Thus Henry developed a plan which entailed the use of a force of lightly armed Thuringian horsemen among whom he spotted a very few heavily armed men. This force was deployed to attract the attention of the Magyars. When the numerically superior Magyars attacked, the lightly armed Germans were to wheel their horses and execute a feigned retreat. This was intended to lure the Magyars into pursuit and within range of Henry's heavily armed horsemen who, concealed by the terrain, would then attack the enemy before they could flee.71 In preparation for this encounter, Henry instructed his heavily armed horsemen in the following terms:

When you are charging forward to this initial contact with the enemy, none of you is to try to outdistance your fellows simply because you have a faster horse. Cover yourself on one side with your shield and catch the enemy's first volley of arrows on your shield. Then charge them at full speed as fast as you can so that before they have a chance to fire a second volley they may feel the wounds inflicted by your weapons.72 "

A gem of an article IMHO and shows clearly that some commanders knew how to counter horse-archers!

!By the way a great mod!

[dfeal]

I love the new winter movement penalty and hopefully this should stop the Gauls and Germans only attacking in winter, as this often happens.

Work in progress looks fab and it looks like being the definitive RTW mod. But, please, one thing; please add centurions to the roman units (160 men without a centurion?) and give those centurions shields!

And why does every unit seem to throw spears? I thought the roman heavy infantry were one of the few heavies that did this?

[QwertyMIDX]

And why does every unit seem to throw spears? I thought the roman heavy infantry were one of the few heavies that did this?

We've had this talk before: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=59261

Too make a long story short, throwing a javelin or two before charging into Melee was incredibly common. We didn't even mention the Germanics in that thread...