The Prussians

[Strike For The South]

Where are these guys? I know some of there land is in modern day Poland so was there some kind of genocide I dont know about? Or have the just assimalted?

[Templar Knight]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

That doesn't mention that the fleeing German's were treated like crap and a few million died immediately after WW2.

So...sort of ethnic cleansing, sort of genocide. I'm sure that the fact that Communism was so strong in East Germany and Poland after the war explains why the Eastern European Germans didn't tend to go back.

However, I do understand that some of their descendants have been trying to buy large parts of Poland back which in turn has annoyed the Poles.

[Mouzafphaerre]

Where are these guys? I know some of there land is in modern day Poland so was there some kind of genocide I dont know about? Or have the just assimalted?

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The Pruss people were completely assimilated by the XVIIIth century, by chivalric orders and later Dukes of Brandenburg. Before they were made into Germans, they used to be a people speaking a West Baltic language, relatives of the Lithuanians and Lethonians.
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[Samurai Waki]

Former Baltic Country extending from Lithuania to the East to Brandenburg in the West. Conquered much of Germany in the Franco-Prussian War.

[Watchman]

Pretty much united Germany with their military-political clout, I seem to recall. For quite a while (from somewhere like mid-1700s onwards, if not earlier) some of the best trained and organized soldiers in Europe - pundits observe that where most nations have militaries, Prussia was much more of a military that had a nation...

[Byzantine Prince]

Prussia was the state that united the German principates together by military means. Their war to anex Austria was a failure and that is why Austria is indepedent even though they speak German. The descendets of the Prussians were deported from Poland after WWII in a form of ethnic cleansing.

The short story anyways.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Kaniningrad, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and Russia is where I'd guess them to be.

(Yes, I know Kaniningrad is part of Russia)

[Atilius]

I'm going to try to pull this all together.

As per Mouzafphaerre, the original Prussians were a Baltic people related to the Latvians and Lithuanians. They lived on the north Baltic shore of what is now Poland to a depth of roughly 100 miles from the coast. In the 13th century, the pagan Prussians were conquered by the German-speaking knights of the Teutonic Order and eventually converted to Christianity. German peasants were also imported to farm the land, as the Prussians were primarily hunters and herders.

Most of Prussia fell to Poles in the 15th century, though the easternmost portion was held by the Teutonic Knights as a fief of the Polish king. This fief eventually passed to the Hohenzollern elector of Brandenburg in 1618.

At this point Prussia begins to play a very important role in German political history.

The Great Elector, Frederick William, managed by arms and diplomacy to gain sovereignty over East Prussia in 1660. Since all of Frederick's other lands (mostly Brandenburg) where held in fief of the Holy Roman Emperor, direct rule over East Prussia was a source of prestige.

In 1701, the great elector's son secured the right to be crowned Frederick I, King in Prussia. The electors of Brandenburg were now the Kings in Prussia, though it's telling that the King's court remained in Berlin. Frederick I's son, Frederick William I, added Pomerania to his holdings, recruited a huge army and left a large financial reserve to his son Frederick the Great.

It is in this period that, as Watchman says, the Prussian army acquired a reputation for exceptional well drilled and disciplined soldiers.

Frederick conquered Silesia and acquired the remainder of Prussia during his reign, roughly doubling the size of Hohenzollern lands.

Prussia was shattered by the Napoleonic wars, prompting Prussian officers such as Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and Clausewitz, to rethink their approach to waging war. One of the fruits of this re-evaluation was to be the German General Staff system. In the wake of the Napoleonic disaster, which formally destroyed the Holy Roman Empire, Prussia emerged stronger from the Congress of Vienna (concluded in 1815), with lands and interests in western Germany.

In 1866, the Prussian defeat of Austria brought more of Germany, including Hanover and Hesse, under Prussian control. At this point, most Germans were Prussian subjects. In the Franco-Prussian war, much of non-Prussian Germany was required by treaty to contribute troops to the Prussian war effort. This effectively, and then formally, unified Germany in 1871 under the Prussian king, who now became the German Emperor.

Defeat in WWI finally destroyed the power of the Hohenzollern line, electors of Brandenburg and Kings of Prussia, with the exile of Emperor William II.

After WWII, the USSR demanded Polish territory (and some of Prussia) for security purposes in the event of future German aggression. Part of Poland's compensation for this loss was control of almost all of what had been the original Prussia. This resulted in the mandatory expulsion of all German citizens in the lands transferred to Polish control. As Taffy_is_a_Taff says this was essentially ethnic cleansing.

[Watchman]

The Nazis had made anything German-related something of a four-letter word in the region though, so it's understandable if not exactly acceptable.

[Kraxis]

Do not forget that a significant part of Prussia is actually Russian today, including the old and quite important city of Königsberg (Kaliningrad now). It is that little enclave between Lithuania and Poland.

It is actually a quite interesting case you know, as all non-EU citizens need a visa to enter the EU, but that forces the Kaliningraders (or what you would call them) to get a visa to enter Russia proper, unless they fly or sail.

In time it simply can't sustain that I think, and it might splinter off completely.

[Watchman]

And we all know how well Russia deals with that idea these days, don't we ?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Just to add some flavour (and shameless self plug ) here is the list of rulers of Brandenburg and Preussen within a certain time period, collected and compiled for a dead mod project for a non-TW game:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Elector-Princes ("Kurnfürsten") of Brandenburg

• Johann Cicero, (1486 - 1499)
• Joachim I Nestor, (1499 - 1535)
• Joachim II Hector, (1535 - 1571)
• Johann Georg, (1571 - 1598)
• Joachim Friedrich, (1598 - 1608)
• Johann Sigismund, (1608 - 1619)
• Georg Wilhelm, (1619 - 1640)
• Friedrich Wilhelm "Der Großer Kurnfürst" (The Great Elector), (1640 - 1688)
• Friedrich III, (1688 - 1701) = Friedrich I, King of Prussia

Kings of Prussia (Preußen)

• Friedrich I, (1701 - 1713)
• Friedrich Wihelm I "der Soldatenkönig", (the Soldier King), (1713 - 1740)
• Friedrich II "der Große" (the Great), (1740 - 1786)
• Friedrich Wilhelm II, (1786 - 1797)
• Friedrich Wilhelm III, (1797 - 1840)
• Friedrich Wilhelm IV, (1840 - 1861)
• Wilhelm I, (1861 - 1871) = Emperor Wilhelm I

German Emperors ("Käiser")

• Wilhelm I, (1871 - 1888)
• Friedrich III, (1888)
• Wilhelm II, (1888 - 1918)

There's a long semi-complete list for several states in need of minor corrections and a few updates here.
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[GoreBag]

Bah, Kaliningrad's citizens are all leaving anyway.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Mouz:

During the reign of Henry VIII the lordship of Ireland became a kingdom.
Its monarchy then followed that of England until the twentieth century.
In 1800 (maybe 1801) the Kingdom of Ireland became part of the United Kingdom.

Thought you may like to know for your list.

[Mouzafphaerre]

Mouz:

During the reign of Henry VIII the lordship of Ireland became a kingdom.
Its monarchy then followed that of England until the twentieth century.
In 1800 (maybe 1801) the Kingdom of Ireland became part of the United Kingdom.

Thought you may like to know for your list.

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Yep, that shuld be added. Some lists concerning coastal Indian Ocean reigns are to be added. I asked the forum admin to move it over my board there so that I can edit/update it.

Thanks!
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[Franconicus]

Prussia was the state that united the German principates together by military means. Their war to anex Austria was a failure and that is why Austria is indepedent even though they speak German. The descendets of the Prussians were deported from Poland after WWII in a form of ethnic cleansing.

The short story anyways.

Short story is not always the right one.

Austria was one of the German countries. Like Prussia it had also non German areas, even bigger. The Emperor of Austria was the former Emperor of the German empire, too (until the Napoleon wars).
After the Congress of Vienna most Germans wanted a united nation. The goal of Bismarck was to get Austria out of the German Confed, so Prussia could dominate. That was the resultt of the Prussian-Austrian war. So in fact Austria is not part of Germany because it lost the war.

Atilius, excellent summary!

Let me add some things: Germany and Prussia lost big parts after WW1. Many Germans still lived there though and that was one reason for WW2 (at least A.H. used it as cause!).

The name Prussia is misleading. The leader of Germany was the emperor, though he had not much to say. The leader of Brandenburg wanted to become King. He had some parts of Prussia, the main parts belonged to the King of Poland. So he called himself King in Prussia while he was still subject of the Emperor. When the King of Poland lost the rest of Prussia the Prussian King called himself King of Prussia. Of cause people called all of his territory Prussia soon, even though there were other areas too.

Prussia was not always militaristic. It became during Bismarck.

[Kraxis]

Prussia was not always militaristic. It became during Bismarck.

Actually Prussia had the most marked military to civilian population in all of Europe. Only Denmark could match that relatively but not in overall numbers.

If that is not militaristic then I don't know.
You don't need to be warlike to be militaristic, and the opposite is true as well.

[Atilius]

When Frederick the Great came to the throne in 1740, Prussia had a standing army of over 80,000 men supported by a population of about 2,000,000. This is an extraordinarily high ratio.

I'm not sure how to interpret the term "militaristic", but Prussia under F der Grosse seems to me have been more aggressive than during Bismarck's ministry. Both challenged and defeated Austria, but Bismarck's Prussia was stronger than FdG's relative to the enemy.

[Franconicus]

I think we have different definitions. To me 'militarism' is when you 'militarize' society, theyt you tranfer properties and virtues from military to civil society. For example obedience, discipline courage. If you use military structures in civil administration. If the political leaders always wear uniforms. If children say the soldiers are their idols. If the president makes his speeches always in front of soldiers ... .
Militarism does not mean that you are agressive or that you have so much military.

Prussia had always a lot of military because it was rather small and wanted to play with the big boys. But Frederick was really an exception (he was cracy) and military was hated by the population then.
The Napoleon Wars showed that Prussia had a very weak army then.
The militarizing of society only happened during Bismarck. He did it by purpose to protect the king against liberalism.

[Kraxis]

I would say that the Napoleonic Wars showed that Prussia in fact had a strong army. Like Austria i managed to rebound from severe losses, but with a much smaller base of resources. The system proved that it could win.

[Franconicus]

No. It showed clearly that the old model with a professional army could not compete with the French people's army. The complete state had to be reformed. In the end it was the people's army - the landwehr and the Freikorps - that defeated the Russians (and a couple of Russians too).

[Kraxis]

The Prussians were outmaneuvered in their battles, but each and every time the regular proved themselves to be superior to their French adversaries. But what does it help if you are tactically outfought? Nothing really.

In the end the people's army won because the regulars were dead.

[Franconicus]

I should not argue with someone who probably took part at the Napoleon Wars
"The Prussians were outmaneuvered in their battles" ... so their army was not very good,, maybe the soldiers: "...regular proved themselves to be superior to their French adversaries"

[Kraxis]

Haha... No I took part in WWII remember.

Anyway, outmaneuvered has more to do with the generals than the structure of the army, the troops or the equipment.
Was the Roman army at Cannae bad because they got outmaneuvered? No, they proved their worth several times in that war.

Had it not been for Napoleon I doubt the Prussians would have suffered a severe defeat. Maybe still a defeat but it would have been an 'honourable' defeat in that case.

Napoleon was the factor that made the most important changes.
Besides when he won at Jena the French troops weren't exactly conscripts anymore (technically they were, but by then they were seasoned veterans with more experience than the Prussian troops could ever hope to get, and quite willing to live the soldier's life).

[King Henry V]

The Prussian army at the start of the Napoleonic Wars was not the feared military machine it had been fifty years before. The Prussian was old and decayed after several decades of neglect (especially among the officer corps) and was in desperate need of reform. This was the main reason why Prussian armies were unsuccesful during the Revolutionary Wars and until 1812. It was only until Prussia was reduced to a client kingdom that the military was sorted out properly. The energetic General Scharnhorst was appointed Chief of Staff and he reformed the Prussian Army, finding a loophole in the French decree that the Prussian army could be no more than 40,000 (IIRC) men strong. 20,000 men would be dismissed from the army, another 20,000 would be recruited and trained, and so on until Prussia had enough trained men to throw off Napoleon's shackles.

[silencio]

Quote:
"In the 13th century, the pagan Prussians were conquered by the German-speaking knights of the Teutonic Order and eventually converted to Christianity. German peasants were also imported to farm the land, as the Prussians were primarily hunters and herders."

Just to add. Most of the pagan Prussians were wiped out by the Theutonic knights, in a brutal orgy of destruction. Their crime against humanity was the refusal to leave their gods and convert to Christianity. Some sources claim that the last ethnic Prussin was burnt on the stake in the mid 14 century, Later the country was repopulated with Germans and German speaking settlers. One of the paradoxies of history - those who wiped out the Prussians later assumed their name.

[Atilius]

Most of the pagan Prussians were wiped out by the Theutonic knights, in a brutal orgy of destruction. Their crime against humanity was the refusal to leave their gods and convert to Christianity. Some sources claim that the last ethnic Prussin was burnt on the stake in the mid 14 century.

The conquest of Prussia was no doubt a bloody business. In 1275, the Teutonic Order's Master Conrad ordered retaliatory raids in Scalovia of which Nicholas von Jeroschin wrote:

They murdered so many of the unbaptised that many drowned in their own blood.

But the Teutonic Order was always short of manpower and it had a financial interest in the productivity of the conquered land. So, no matter how bloodthirsty it might have been, the Order was far more interested in keeping the peace, if possible. In The Teutonic Knights William Urban writes:

The Christians resettled most of their prisoners as farm laborers, often as serfs; in short, many such captives continued life much as before.

These prisoners were required to convert nominally to Christianity, but authorities were largely unwilling to punish any who continued to practice paganism unless it was done openly.

According to Urban, when the famous Sudovian leader Scumand surrendered and converted in 1283, he was given lands in the vicinity of Balga and was admired by Christian and pagan alike.

I'm unaware of evidence that the Teutonic Order undertook a campaign of extermination against the Prussians.

As for the "sins" of the Prussians, one reason the Teutonic order was commissioned to invade Prussia in the first place was the frequent Prussian slave raiding into Christian Masovia.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Some sources claim that the last ethnic Prussin was burnt on the stake in the mid 14 century

The articles in Britannica regarding Prussia and Baltic languages state that Prussian was spoken until 17th century. The wiki article says that:

Old Prussian probably ceased to be spoken around the end of the 17th century with the Great Plague.

I see no reason for the German colonists to speak the language of the inhabitants, so it seems that a Prussian ethnicity survived well until the 17th century, anbeit by their language.
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