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Thread: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

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    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    In the beginning, man fought wars over conflicts. Settled farmer people blocked the winter pasture areas of the shepherd people. Farmer and shepherd people expanded and left for the nomads the difficult terrain with almost no water and almost no food, and nomads as a consequence carried out raids occasionaly. (1)

    Later, when wars became more common, people fought wars over strategical positions, money and resources, all of which were important to strengthen the own military and use it for defense against attacks from enemies, should they attack because they wanted pastures for their sheep, better farming lands after their own soil had been consumed, as soil often was after a few harvests in those days. (2)

    And people of the settled cultures begun to get more and more offspring, because only the settlements who were numerous stood a chance at surviving the wars at the dawn of civilization, and so cultures who were more warlike and gave birth to more children tended to be most effective at surviving in this new world order. (3)

    When the offspring of the people of the settled cultures increased, so did the need for land. And wars followed. More pastures and more farming lands were needed. And as wars became more common, so did the need for strategic positions. Soon men fought wars over tools they could use if they would get into a conflict, instead of fighting the actual conflicts. (4)

    And cultures who wished to live in peace were assimilated. Their people weren't always killed, but forced to adopt the culture of their conquerors. And so the warlike cultures won, while all of the peoples lost. Because when the warlike cultures replaced the peaceful ones, the more numerous the wars got, and the more often were wars fought solely over strategic positions and tools to use in the case of an actual conflict. (5)

    Eventually, fighting for strategic positions proved to not be enough. Soon, man found himself preventing an enemy from getting weapons that could later be used for conquering strategic positions, which would later be used to their advantage in the event of a conflict. Man found himself preventing an enemy from giving birth to a large offspring, in case the enemy would later use the offspring to create weapons, that could later be used for conquering strategic positions, which would later be used to their advantage in the event of a conflict. And the conquerors rejoyced. But not even that was enough for man, in his greed. (6)

    Soon man found yet another reason to fight wars and carry out massacres. Man went after neutrals who spoke negatively of his regime, because they might raise the morale and change the opinion of other neutrals, so they would create weapons, with which they could take strategic positions for him, which they would later use to their advantage, in the event of a conflict. (7)

    Now the big question is - why will we fight in the future?

    ========
    Notes:
    1. most early wars in all areas around the time what we call civilization (assuming we use the definition that civilization equals people starting to live in more complex settled societies) evolved in the area.
    2. anyone who has read military history should be familiar with conflicts over strategic positions. The earliest known examples ought to be from Pharaonic egypt and similar, and have existed throughout the roman era and up to this day, more or less.
    3. the overpopulation could be partly connected to war, but note that I'm not implying there is a causality connection between war and the increase of offspring among humans, which begun around the time of the dawn of civilization.
    4. expansion for "lebensraum" is not unique to the nazi philosophy, but has existed throughout history, although lebensraum is probably the first time there is an actual term for the concept. The germanic and slavic migrations at the time of the fall of the roman empire is a good example, however in that case it's probable that it was initially the roman expansions that caused the dense population of the area, not exaggerated offsprings like in other regions. A similar form of war is war fought to gain resources such as gold, oil, fishing territory etc.
    5. while people are often assimilated it's usually not the people that is destroyed, but their culture. I'm not referring to an evolution of human beings, but an evolution of cultures. Adopting certain cultures has undoubtedly given benefits to some people by making them more successful in war, but even more important is the fact that certain cultures without benefiting the people can have a superior strength and in some way or another replacing earlier cultures in a region. In this case, there seems like cultures who are more prepared for war are favored, even though it doesn't benefit the people having the culture that this culture often gives birth to war even when there are no actual conflicts.
    6. we all know of the concentration camps of the colonial era and afterwards. Even in ancient times similar strategies of trying to destroy a people rather than trying to stop the fighting as a means of ending resistance and eliminating an existing or imagined threat have been recorded.
    7. stalin and others killing political opponents. But even that existed already in ancient times, for example during Domitian, according to several chronicles who in this case are generally considered truthful. The new so called war on terror is also gradually turing into something similar to this.
    Under construction...

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    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    To secure a food supply and fertile lands

    As the population increases, food supplies shall lower as more land it used for housing and there is not enough food to feed everyone suitably. Nations will take new, fertile lands to provide enough food.
    It was not theirs to reason why,
    It was not theirs to make reply,
    It was theirs but to do or die.
    -The Charge of the Light Brigade - Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    "Wherever this stone shall lie, the King of the Scots shall rule"
    -Prophecy of the Stone of Destiny

    "For God, For King and country, For loved ones home and Empire, For the sacred cause of justice, and The freedom of the world, They buried him among the kings because he, Had done good toward God and toward his house."
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Quote Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
    In the beginning, man fought wars over conflicts.
    Thank god we left that all behind us ;)

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    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Under construction...

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    Not affiliated with Red Dwarf. Member Ianofsmeg16's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Countries fight each other because the world is one big primary school playground, on the playground, kids fight because it looks cool, but the next day the two fighters are best friends with each other, and the next week they fight again. Politicians pretend to be grown up, but really they are just like 7 year olds
    When I was a child
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    I turned to look but it was gone
    I cannot put my finger on it now
    The child is grown,
    The dream is gone.
    I have become comfortably numb...

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    to keep the masses focused lest we find out the truth and realize poloticans and goverment is obsolete
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Clan Takiyama Senior Member R'as al Ghul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    War is and has always been about resources. Aquiring and defending them.
    I don't see any development at all.

    The future wars will most probably be fought about water supply.
    Last edited by R'as al Ghul; 01-15-2006 at 17:00.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Because it is our innermost nature to be selfish, disagree, and fight...

    Many peoples before us liked war, and spoke of it glowingly...

    Wonder now if they were right...?
    Last edited by Reenk Roink; 01-15-2006 at 17:04.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
    Many peoples before us liked war, and spoke of it glowingly...

    Wonder now if they were right...?
    But war was still fun back then, I mean, wouldn't you want to mow down a bunch of peasants carrying a PHAT lance??? Fun for all ages and the gals love it!

    //BUAHAHAHA hijacking threads is fun now!

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    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Previously, one could attain fame and riches through war, but that seems to have stopped in the Western World. No more dashing hussars, or noble officers...
    It was not theirs to reason why,
    It was not theirs to make reply,
    It was theirs but to do or die.
    -The Charge of the Light Brigade - Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    "Wherever this stone shall lie, the King of the Scots shall rule"
    -Prophecy of the Stone of Destiny

    "For God, For King and country, For loved ones home and Empire, For the sacred cause of justice, and The freedom of the world, They buried him among the kings because he, Had done good toward God and toward his house."
    -Inscription on the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior

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    Not affiliated with Red Dwarf. Member Ianofsmeg16's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Malcolm, thats because we've lost interest in war as of late,

    C'mon people war is fun! they make games about war, therefor its fun! be interested!
    When I was a child
    I caught a fleeting glimpse
    Out of the corner of my eye.
    I turned to look but it was gone
    I cannot put my finger on it now
    The child is grown,
    The dream is gone.
    I have become comfortably numb...

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    Viceroy of the Indian Empire Member Duke Malcolm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Yes, this is a forum about Total War games, after all!
    But wars of days gone by have been fought to improve the country, or defend the country. Recent wars (with the exception of the Falklands' War) have been to overthrow foreign governments, with little affect on the home country (Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq)
    It was not theirs to reason why,
    It was not theirs to make reply,
    It was theirs but to do or die.
    -The Charge of the Light Brigade - Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    "Wherever this stone shall lie, the King of the Scots shall rule"
    -Prophecy of the Stone of Destiny

    "For God, For King and country, For loved ones home and Empire, For the sacred cause of justice, and The freedom of the world, They buried him among the kings because he, Had done good toward God and toward his house."
    -Inscription on the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior

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    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Quote Originally Posted by Reenk Roink
    Because it is our innermost nature to be selfish, disagree, and fight...

    Many peoples before us liked war, and spoke of it glowingly...

    Wonder now if they were right...?
    The early 20th century also spoke glowingly of war, and it seems to be coming back occasionally throughout history. Plus much old literature is propaganda to try and glorify dirty wars, we had the same during ww2 and we'll probably see it again.

    War is fun in games and art, but what is nice in art is horrible in reality, and what is horrible in reality is crappy as art.
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    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Quote Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul
    War is and has always been about resources. Aquiring and defending them.
    I don't see any development at all.

    The future wars will most probably be fought about water supply.
    The evolution I'm speaking of is that we see smaller and smaller threats or signs of something that might develop into a threat in the future, as reason for going to war. I agree that the ultimate goal always is to secure the resources, but throughout history we've fighting for that goal through achieving more and more indirect goals. Many times it's indirectly through a chain so long that we're creating more resource problems than we solve by the wars we start. By now it should be absolutely clear to all humans that our overpopulation is going to kill us unless we do something. We have so many individuals of each race/nationality/religion whatever that there's simply no need to give birth to more to have a security against mutations etc. We don't really need to fight each other, because if anyone wins and continues the absurd overreproduction he's going to die anyway, so we all need to change and adapt and while we're adapting we might as well adapt in a way so that there are no conflicts left.

    All wars also pick out the strongest of their group to die or at least be kept away from home so they don't reproduce, so war is always hurting the entire people of those who take part in it. It's absolutely clear that the further we've progressed in history, the wars have been started by more and more absurd reasons, and with worse and worse consequences for mankind, including the group that temporarily achieves victory. The survivors are not the brave but the cowardly, who stayed at home and sent out the strong and brave to die. It's scared cowards such as war-mongers who create wars, and for every century we carry out a genocide of all brave so as a whole mankind is becoming more and more cowardly, and sees more and more (often non-existing) threats, and new reasons to start war.

    The only thing that wins in these conflicts is civilizations, cultures and society systems (things that can't exist without humans), while mankind is killing itself. And the more killing is done, the more wars that happen, the more fear there is of being attacked by others, and that fear itself is the cause of new wars, wars for strategic positions or other wars that are only indirectly through a very long chain striving towards granting some kind of safety. New wars cause new fear of being attacked, and new fear of being attacked causes new wars, for even more indirect reasons.
    Under construction...

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    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Gah, what a depressing topic, I think I'll go and eat some ice cream now...
    Last edited by Reenk Roink; 01-15-2006 at 18:21.

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    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    I'm sorry for making you depressed, but I just ate some ice cream at it helps
    Under construction...

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    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Post Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Thucydides wrote that men go to war for one of three reasons: fear, honor, and interest.

    Interest (or greed) has been mentioned here in several posts.

    Thucydides himself cites the Spartans' fear of the rising power of Athens as the cause of the Peloponnesian war.

    The British and French entry into WWII is a case of going to war in order to preserve honor. Both had been humiliated by their diplomatic impotence to prevent Hitler's remilitarization of the Rhineland, annexation of Austria, and occupation of Czechoslovakia. They were allied with Poland, but had no hope of successfully defending the Poles and nothing to gain from doing so. The British didn't even have any way to intervene effectively without deploying to France.

    This is clearly not an example of going to war over interests, and had fear alone been the cause, they would have done just as well to conclude a Franco-British alliance without actually declaring war.
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    Back in style Member Lentonius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    simple answer here- were violent gits us humans

    when the simplicity of killing animals was replaced by people living in a community, they got angry at their neighbouring tribes and descided that playing hunt the antelope would be quite fitting to their friends a mile down...

    there is still that ape like instinct in us that urges for violence, and every now and then raises its ugly head...
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    In a sense (and a very real one at that) the likes of alliances and international prestige are resources, so it could be argued that, too, is just fighting over resources.

    Which is really the whole point. People fight to gain advantages and resources - but what rates as such varies wildly, has always varied and will always vary.

    People do not incidentally go to war over things like "anger" or "xenophobia" or whatever unless the inner workings of their own culture allow or require it - for example, a tribal chief may well *have* to go to war against the next tribe to avenge a perceived insult, or lose "face" and prestige and be denounced as a feeble coward by his followers...
    Last edited by Watchman; 01-15-2006 at 21:12.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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    American since 2012 Senior Member AntiochusIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Quote Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
    War is fun in games and art, but what is nice in art is horrible in reality, and what is horrible in reality is crappy as art.
    I beg to digress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius
    Thucydides wrote that men go to war for one of three reasons: fear, honor, and interest.
    On a pragmatic point of view, honor is likely a combination of fear and interests. I want to keep my honor; I fear I will lose my honor...so I kill my foes in the wars.

    I guess honor is a sort of commodity to be manipulated, or to satisfy's one's emotions and desires, known vaguely and generalized as greed.

    Gods, I need ice cream.

    However, we should make notice that war isn't always abour resources: the ambitions of individuals have caused war where there shouldn't be one before. They used to call those arseholes kings and warlords, today we call them politicians. Tell me, are the young men in All Quiet On the Western Front to be blamed for instigating the First World War?

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    "Nobody is driven to war by ignorance, and nobody who thinks he will gain from it is deterred by fear." That's one of the more profound quotes I've seen in the RTW loading screens. WW1 happened because everyone was already raring to go, hadn't a clue what their new shiny toys actually could do, and was quite confident their side would quickly come out on top and get to dictate terms to the losers, just like in the old days. And the stakes they were fighting over were stuff like Great Power prestige and precedence, overseas colonies, disputed border provinces (Alsace-Lothringen comes immediately to mind - that was fought over already in the Thirty Years' War...)...

    It just kind of didn't go according to the plan for anyone. The two World Wars, and the colonial revolts after the second, are among the main thing why no First World country wants to fight its peers anymore. Modern industrial war is simply too horrifyingly expensive in all meanings if waged against an opponent of even remotely comparable power, and doubly so with nukes involved. For example I've seen some references to the strategic plans the WP drew up during the Cold War; there was one which called the Polish army to occupy the Baltic coast of West Germany, and if it was in the condition to do so and there was anything left over there worth taking over, proceed with an amphibious assault into Sweden... it was projected that by this point the main WP forces advancing westwards from East Germany would have been completely crippled by appalling casualties.

    This is the sort of planning that goes to a modern superpower war. No wonder nobody actually wants to fight one. What's the point if you can only consider yourself the victor by the default condition of being able to stay up atop your heap of smoldering ruins while the other guy fell down from his ?

    Which is why those First World powers with the resources and motivation to do so have only been beating on much weaker opponents since then. And even that has every now and then blown in their face...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Post Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
    On a pragmatic point of view, honor is likely a combination of fear and interests. I want to keep my honor; I fear I will lose my honor...so I kill my foes in the wars.

    I guess honor is a sort of commodity to be manipulated, or to satisfy's one's emotions and desires, known vaguely and generalized as greed.
    A fair point, but the distinction is important. Honor is self-respect or the regard of others. Honor cannot be a commodity because different people find different things honorable. All countries can preserve self-respect at the same time, and all can perhaps even hold the regard of all others. But only one country can control a harbor, a pass, or a parcel of fertile land.
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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    In the future we will not have any wars among humans. We will find a common enemy and start all over. Colonization, industrialism etc etc.
    One thing is clear, the individual will be less and less important, which will reflect the possibilities to war. Larger civilizations will not wage war as easy as small ones. Also war against inferior civilizations will not be seen as a war......

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Somewhere out there in space is a civilisation that has never known war. When we find them we will conquour their pansy arses and their women will scream and wail . While their children will be taught why it pays not to only have peasants as your defence force.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Somewhere out there in space is a civilisation that has never known war. When we find them we will conquour their pansy arses and their women will scream and wail . While their children will be taught why it pays not to only have peasants as your defence force.
    Or they are like the Klingons and will kick some serious butt. You will see yourself leaving place for a alien moderator making sure that our bashing is limited to Bush and his human likes, while the new alien supreme rules is treated with outmost respect........

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    I suspect we'll blow ourselves back to the Stone Age first, personally. Too many too big guns, too many idiots, and sooner or later someone runs short of something and tries to take his neighbor's...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member Reenk Roink's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Quote Originally Posted by bmolsson
    You will see yourself leaving place for a alien moderator making sure that our bashing is limited to Bush and his human likes, while the new alien supreme rules is treated with outmost respect........
    Absolutely not good sir, it has already been determined that the world will be shared between Just A Girl (ShambleS) and myself, with America being a wasteland that neither of us wants...

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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Wars have always been about two things, resources and population pressure.

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    Population pressure is really just a shortage of resources due to too many consumers, though.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  30. #30
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why we fight - evolution of justification of war

    I think we're talking about two different things here:

    1) the decision to go to war
    2) why we fight

    Leaders decide to go to war (i.e. temporarily allow the murder of others) for resolving resource conflicts - OK I can buy that, as a very broad definition.

    Why individual humans fight seems more tied to group cohesion
    http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=5182 , and only secondarily for more far-flung political goals.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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