British day

**Brenus** · 01-18-2006, 20:49

I have a good one: 20th of May, anniversary of the Battle of Lincoln in 1217. The last French King was expelled from England: Lincoln Castle was the site of a battle on 20 May 1217. The clash took place during the first Baron’s war between the forces of the future Louis VIII of France and those of King Henry III of England. Louis' forces were attacked by a relief force under the command of William Marshall, 1st Earl of Pembroke. The Comte de la Perche, commanding the French troops, was killed and the defeat led to Louis being expelled from his base in the southeast of England.
The English gave him some monney and his gave back the Crown. Anyway, he had another option.
So after roughly 200 years, the English finally were independant from France.

**GoreBag** · 01-18-2006, 21:37

Even though the ruling class was French?

**BDC** · 01-18-2006, 22:16

Originally Posted by NeonGod

Even though the ruling class was French?

They were Norman, not French. And they ended up thinking of themselves as English anyway.

**Brenus** · 01-18-2006, 22:28

“They were Norman, not French. And they ended up thinking of themselves as English anyway.”
That is not valid. If every time you disagree with something about France you say, well, he is not French, is Corsican (Napoleon) or, Alsatian, or Auvergnat, or Gascon, France doesn’t exist as country. France is composed of various counties and even different languages, before the great languages unification of the XIV century.
It is like saying, well, he is not English, he is Londoner…
The Normans were French.

The First English King buried in England and not in France was John Lackland.
And the reason why during the Hundred Years War, the English King was able to claim the Throne of France was because technically, he was French. And without the superb finding of the so-called Salic law, he would have been (no transmission of the throne to female).

**BDC** · 01-18-2006, 22:56

That is not valid. If every time you disagree with something about France you say, well, he is not French, is Corsican (Napoleon) or, Alsatian, or Auvergnat, or Gascon, France doesn’t exist as country. France is composed of various counties and even different languages, before the great languages unification of the XIV century.

But at this point they really weren't French. Might as well claim that Bretons were French. They might be nominally under the French crown, but they weren't French.

**Brenus** · 01-18-2006, 23:11

“But at this point they really weren't French. Might as well claim that Bretons were French. They might be nominally under the French crown, but they weren't French.”
So, your definition for French at this period was only valid for the Ile de France (Paris).
The Normans were in the French territory longer than Corsica when Napoleon became Emperor of the French.
They spoke French (reason why English is full of French words), the Duke of Normandy (as the Duke of Brittany) had to paid Homage to the French King, they were at least belonging to the Kingdom of France, got their power (in term of Feudalism) from the French King. The same thing is valid for Toulouse, and others fiefs.
It you take as starting point 1066 (Hasting) and the battle of Lincoln (1217), it was more than 150 years of full existence of the Duche in the French Kingdom. How much time more is needed to the Normans to become French?

**GoreBag** · 01-19-2006, 09:47

Originally Posted by BDC

But at this point they really weren't French. Might as well claim that Bretons were French. They might be nominally under the French crown, but they weren't French.

They are now, but at that point in time, Brittany was still its own kingdom and its culture was very, very different from every French region.

**Brenus** · 01-19-2006, 20:53

Brittany was still its own kingdom”: Brittany was never a kingdom, but a Duche. And it was probably one of the earliest to be attached to the future French Kingdom, by marriage.
As the difference in culture, go in France in Strasbourg, Lyon then in Toulouse or near Nice and you will see that France is a mixture of cultures. That is why there are more than 500 cheeses…

**matteus the inbred** · 01-19-2006, 09:37

Originally Posted by Brenus

I have a good one: 20th of May, anniversary of the Battle of Lincoln in 1217. The last French King was expelled from England: Lincoln Castle was the site of a battle on 20 May 1217. The clash took place during the first Baron’s war between the forces of the future Louis VIII of France and those of King Henry III of England. Louis' forces were attacked by a relief force under the command of William Marshall, 1st Earl of Pembroke. The Comte de la Perche, commanding the French troops, was killed and the defeat led to Louis being expelled from his base in the southeast of England.
The English gave him some monney and his gave back the Crown. Anyway, he had another option.
So after roughly 200 years, the English finally were independant from France.

that's very impressive, but even i didn't know much about that, and i have a degree in medieval studies...!
the English ruling class spoke Norman French as a matter of course until as late as the 14th century. the English crown lost Normandy, and therefore its original homeland, in 1204, but definite seperation of the English ruling class from the idea of being as much French as English probably didn't come until Edward III decided to claim both...then it became 'them and us' rather than the combination French/English nobility we'd had until then...