Evidence for a 3rd century BC Casse

[zakalwe]

''Without a time machine, conjecture is inevitable. However, we try to make the most reasonable assumptions as best we can.''

Ranika, yeah that's fine and i think you've made the right choices. As an ex-archaeologist and someone who works on historical reconstructions alot for work, i completely agree with your above statement.

My point is really that since EB is styled (either intentionally or not) as 'a historically accurate' mod, alot of people are going to take that to mean unconditionally that the EB setting is 100% how it was at the RL start date.

I think it would be excellent from an educational point of view to have a section under each faction which gives a shortened version of the historical evidence for the faction, including eg - the life of the first faction leader where known and what he achieved in RL, the debatable evidence and where EB had to make tough decisions, etc. Of course i'm biased in this since my work is in heritage education and alot of what we do is historical reconstructions with artists or re-enactors. We find that the public are often as interested in the areas where there are no definitive answers as those where we can definitely say what happened.

[Ranika]

A lot of folks want us to be flawlessly historically accurate. Of course we'd love to be. However, no one can be. We don't know everything people did, we don't know all the practices they engaged in, the finest points of daily life, and sometimes we have to make intellectual leaps where in we link together evidence as best we can. We've been lucky to have fans who understand that. A lot of people are so clamoring for absolute accuracy, that they don't seem to recognize that no such thing exists (though one can get a damn sight closer than CA managed, or most 'historical' games tend to be). We can get into the specifics of clothing, equipment, and other tangible things we find. We can't know the absolute intricacies of individual persons to the finest part of their being, especially those who are inferred more than absolute.

And even every day folks seem to desire historical accuracy. Notice how quickly people seem to think movies set during historical events are more or less accurate. Even movies not pitched as such (like Braveheart; pitched as a 'Celtic fantasy', but I've had innumerable conversations where I had to explain how glaringly inaccurate it was and the way things really were, and how arduously some seemed to think it was accurate). Accuracy is a tough point. The goal, but it's always going to be a bit beyond us.

[PSYCHO V]

Yes, much of history is conjecture. Further to Ran's comments.

The Casse, may have had their roots in the proto-Belgae tribe that later became known as the Catalauni on the continent,... well before the game’s period. In Briton, some scholars believe these then settled and took control of a subtantial amount of territory north of the Thames (around early to mid 3rd C BC). Others believe they came first as traders, then mercenaries (during late 3rd - ealry 2nd C BC) until they ultimately dominated the idigenous tribes and took over as the ruling elite.

In any case, the Casse appear to have soon expanded and become a sizable state of military and commercial power by absorbing or controlling dozens of smaller tribes in the area. Apparently they fought sucessfully against major incursions from continental Belgae (Ambiani - early 2nd C BC / Suessiones - early 1 C BC) after which both later came under Casse control in Briton.

In around 61 BC, Cassivellaunus ('Vellaunus of the Cassi') officially algamated the various Belgic tribes under his direct control and formed the Catuvellauni, further expanding to a point where-by the state came to dominate most of Southern Briton just prior to the mid 1st C BC and the invasion of Caesar.

The Casse represent a great 'what-if' faction. It would have been interesting for example to see what would have become of the 'Casse' kingdom / state if Rome hadn't have played a part. We know for eg that the Casse under Tasciovanus took the Trinovantian capital in around 15 BC before having to withraw in the face of Roman intervention.

We aslo know the Casse had strongs ties to the mainland. It is believed they intermarried with continental tribes and enjoyed extensive trade with the Gallic Venellii, Lexovii, Veneti, and the Belgae (Menapi, both on the continent and later in Ireland by early 1st C BC and Morini, by early 2nd C BC). It appears they also crossed the channel to give support to the Belgic confederacy eg againt Rome (Caesar 1st C BC) and Veneti alliance eg against the Tarbelii and Lemovicii (late 3rd C BC) and against Rome (Caesar 1st C BC).

..but we may never really know exactly (with 100% cetainty) what, who and how these people were and what they achieved.

Need to updated my Library catalogue but..

References:

Ann Ross, Druids - Preachers of Immortality
Barry Cunliffe, The Ancient Celts
Barry Cunliffe, Iron Age Britain
Dio Cassius, Roman History
David Chandler, The Dictionary of Ancient Battles
Iain Zaczek, The Art of the Celts
James Harvey Robinson, History of Western Europe
James Mitchell, Ancient History
John Collis, The Celts - Origins, Myths and Inventions
John Creighton, Coins and power in Late Iron Age Britain, Cambridge University Press
John Haywood, The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World
Julius Caesar, The Civil War
Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico
Livy, The Early History of Rome
Livy, The War with Hannibal
Peter Berresford Ellis, Celt and Greek : Celts in the Hellenic World
Peter Berresford Ellis, Celt and Roman : The Celts of Italy
Peter Berresford Ellis, The Celtic Empire
Peter Berresford Ellis, The Druids
Polybius, The Rise of the Roman Empire
Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick, A History of Pagan Europe
Ptolemy, Geography
Sheppard Frere, Britannia
Simon James, Exploring the World of the Celts
Strabo, Geography
Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars
T.G.E Powell, The Celts
Tacitus, The Agricola and Germania
Tim Newark & Angus McBride, Barbarians
Venceslas Kruta, Celts - History and Civilization

[zakalwe]

To add that great list you have there Psycho, I would heartily recommend the purchase of Cunliffe's 'Iron Age Communities in Britain'. This goes into alot more detail than his other works and is a very interesting read. Kind of like his life's work poured out onto paper. It has recently come out in an updated edition in 2004. The main problem is that unless you have a good academic library nearby it is pretty expensive. Perhaps you could purchase it 2nd hand, although you'd need to check you were getting the right edition.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...905115-3262004

But anyway my real question with this thread is whether there will be any kind of explanation about the research behind EB or the faction? I guess it is low on the agenda seeing as you guys will be very busy atm, but it would be good to see areas over which there is some controversy being addressed.

Also since i've not downloaded the beta version yet, what settlement are you using for Caledonia (not sure what name you're using for the province). Are you still using Attuaca for the moment or have you changed it?

[PSYCHO V]

To add that great list you have there Psycho, I would heartily recommend the purchase of Cunliffe's 'Iron Age Communities in Britain'. This goes into alot more detail than his other works and is a very interesting read. Kind of like his life's work poured out onto paper. It has recently come out in an updated edition in 2004. The main problem is that unless you have a good academic library nearby it is pretty expensive. Perhaps you could purchase it 2nd hand, although you'd need to check you were getting the right edition.

Wahoo!..Thanks a heap zakalwe! Guess what I've just ordered ?

To be honest, I wasn't even aware of it so I’m indebted. Not sure where you’re from, but Australia (here) is to Halstatt / La Tene Culture (associated history, archaeology, etc) as Siberia was to Soviet Russians. It’s a veritable wasteland. There is next to nothing here. We have only one Professor of any repute in the whole country and they have recently retired. Egyptology, Classics, Near East, etc yer.. we have a relative wealth...the one area I'm interested in ...zip. I've been trying to convince contacts at several Unis to 'invest' (for the good of the nation of course ) in a sojourn up north to talk / study under some people that actually know what they're on about.

Very much looking forward to this newish work by Cunliffe. I have to admit I did feel like I was only getting part of the picture in his other works and wish he went further.. so this is very good news. And I like his style. Not unnecessarily complex like Powell (though he had the excuse of being somewhat of a pioneer), not as obscure as Collis, nor quite as sensational as Ellis (though I admit I don’t mind that on occasion).

Speaking of Ellis. Based on his research and that of Ross, we have a very unique looking Druid unit being modelled that you may find interesting.

Always..dont know if you’ve managed to get a hold of any work by Kruta? He’s director of Celtic Studies in Paris and though not a great writer (in all fairness it could be the translation), he has some interesting insights. ..and my all time favourite is still Daithi O Hogan from Dublin, the Goldsworthy of Gaels and Gauls.

..sorry, get carried away with a fellow ‘barb’ lover

But anyway my real question with this thread is whether there will be any kind of explanation about the research behind EB or the faction? I guess it is low on the agenda seeing as you guys will be very busy atm, but it would be good to see areas over which there is some controversy being addressed.

Well… as you’d probably be able to appreciate, it’d be an epic in itself. The short answer is hell yes, we’d love too…and it’d save many recurring questions or misunderstandings..but the time needed is a killer. We’ll see what we can do.

Also since i've not downloaded the beta version yet, what settlement are you using for Caledonia (not sure what name you're using for the province). Are you still using Attuaca for the moment or have you changed it?

You’ll have to check with Ranika, it’s his area. I tend to focus / specialise more on the continentals.


Thanks again

[Ranika]

Attuaca is still there, but probably going to change it to Traprain Law; map changes are rather slow for us usually, as they aren't an overt priority at the time. However, it is noted somewhere, and will be done.

[PSYCHO V]

Speaking of fellow 'barb' lovers