Rally, Route or Withdraw?

[Legorreto]

What's the main difference in between these options and when should I use one better that the other?

[Scurvy]

you use rally when your men are running away, and they turn round and reform,

i use withdraw when i have a unit stuck in combat by mistke (usually horse archers) but striaght after hitting withdraw double click somewhere behind them and the move away far quciker than from just withdraw,

and rout you almost never want to do on purpose

[matteus the inbred]

and rout you almost never want to do on purpose

i never want to do it by accident either...! for emergencies only, to get troops out a bad situation quickly.

withdraw can also be used to take exhausted troops or missile troops that have run out of ammunition off the field, so you can replace them. it's also a good idea to withdraw siege weapon crews once they've run out of ammo. they'll just walk off the back of the battlefield, and once their unit icon has gone from the bottom of the screen, you're free to bring reinforcements on.

[Scurvy]

hmm i have routed on purpose once or twice, it can be very effective for getting enemies right where you want them,

a good example (online) is when i was defending on a map with trees on each side at clear centre and no hills anywhere (hard to describe) i hid men in both side of the trees, and then put quite a few men in centre to make it not quite as obvious that i had men in trees. He wasnt going to fall for it though and just stood there shooting my inf and pavs, so i charged that half of my army right at him, and after maybe 30 secs routed them, they ran straight down centre, and he couldnt stop men chasing so i hit him on both flanks with my best units, the runners then rallied and i crushed him

[matteus the inbred]

hmm i have routed on purpose once or twice, it can be very effective for getting enemies right where you want them

ah yes, feigned retreats, good point!
as i don't play MP, i guess i've never needed them...the AI just doesn't seem to need the extra impetus of a rout to chase things into traps...! and elite units are often programmed to ignore routers that aren't elite.

[Scurvy]

to be fair, on mp they normally fail completely due to chain routs or simply clever opponents, and also most game are 3v3 or 4v4, so you need all ,16 units available...

[Betito]

Another use for the withdraw feature is to replendish your missiles (SP only):

When a missile unit shoots all their ammo, you have two choices:

1. To keep them for the melee, which is maybe a good idea for close, tough battles AND if the unit can do it decently (ottoman infantry, futuwwas, janisary infantry.... even longbows, if the battle is that close)

2.Withdraw and replace:This is better suited for battle where you don't want your units to be decimated or if you want the firepower to remain at a high level (bridge battles come to my mind, although many other cases are suitable). Turcoman foot is a good examples of this, and i prefer to use longbows this way.

The withdraw process can lead to confusion: when the unit leaves the battlefield, the number of soldiers start to go down quickly and the wavering flag shows up: just like if it were attacked by surprise. So watch out this detail, and don't be fooled by this possible confusion


Edit: BTW, very nice sig, Legorreto!

[The Darkhorn]

Don't you hate it when you rout them by mistake. Once, in a crucial attack I began and selected the entire army with crtl+a.....then instead of clicking on the group icon, I clicked on the rout!!!!!
For a few seconds I sat there going....wtf?
Then the light bulb comes on.

[Scurvy]

the worst is at the start, when you group units and hit rout by mistake.... i once had 6 cav run off the battlefield because of a cruddy mouse (obviously didnt feed it enough cheese) but all 16! killer! i think GAH just about sums it up...

[Weebeast]

Why is that sometimes my troops are 'disheartened by constant retreat' when I never hit the rout button? They all just chain rout and can't be rallied. Well, they do rally but in a second they rout again.

This happens to me when I keep trying to change formation (left click - drag mouse thing).

[matteus the inbred]

to Darkhorn and Scurvy



i can't believe you did this!
i haven't achieved this singular feat yet, but there's plenty of time, oh yes...

i hit 'windows' in the middle of a scrap last night and it caused the 3D accelerator to fail

[Scurvy]

one day it will happen to do, its very easy mistake to make...

[Ludens]

Why is that sometimes my troops are 'disheartened by constant retreat' when I never hit the rout button? They all just chain rout and can't be rallied. Well, they do rally but in a second they rout again.

It's caused by the so called Benny-Hill code, to prevent players from running light cavalry around the map until the timer runs out. A unit that is constantly ordered to move away from the enemy will, after 15 move-orders or so, auto-rout. Attacking an enemy will reset the counter, so you can start running around again.

Routing units will not always rally when you order them, and it gives a nasty vice to the general if he does it. Therefor I only use it when I want to prevent a unit from getting shredded in a melee, if it is unable to disengage manually.

Rally gives a morale boost to fleeing units, so it can be used to stop them from routing. Quite often, however, the boost is insufficient and they keep running (thereby tiring themselves and making a succesful rally even more unlikely).

[matteus the inbred]

one day it will happen to you, its very easy mistake to make...

i don't doubt it! i'll be sure to let you know so you can laugh at me.

It's caused by the so called Benny-Hill code, to prevent players from running light cavalry around the map until the timer runs out.

wow. did not know that! cheers Ludens.

[Scurvy]

surely the light cav would get tired before a whole 15 clicks or sowhen running, and i dont think many people would have the patience...but still its worth knowing

[Weebeast]

It's caused by the so called Benny-Hill code, to prevent players from running light cavalry around the map until the timer runs out.

Ahhh those exploiters cost me a battle. I didn't know this really. Thank you. I was just trying to reorganize my army or whatever but I kept getting undesired formation. Some of them were still engaged so I think that's the problem. I put them all in one group.

About the light-cavalry, they still can run around map when put in skirmish mode. Well I use skirmish method quite often especially if I have access to horse archers. They won't route at all unless they lose men. That makes Benny-Hill code useless, no?

[Ludens]

About the light-cavalry, they still can run around map when put in skirmish mode. Well I use skirmish method quite often especially if I have access to horse archers. They won't route at all unless they lose men. That makes Benny-Hill code useless, no?

IIRC the Benny-Hill code does not apply to missile units that have some arrows left, but I am not sure. Also, a skirmishing unit will get cornered unles the player intervenes.

[The Darkhorn]

IIRC the Benny-Hill code does not apply to missile units that have some arrows left, but I am not sure. Also, a skirmishing unit will get cornered unles the player intervenes.

Actually it does. I found out the hard way when I had a bunch of HA facing a bunch of Nubians. My general just routed away. I've turned two generals into girlymen b/c of that code. I've since just avoided being HA heavy which is unfortunate.

[ajaxfetish]

If you use the 'g' key instead of your mouse to group units you're a little safer. I never use route (my troops seem to manage that well enough on their own when push comes to shove), but withdraw is very useful, not just for replacing missile units, but for removing any unit that's ready to retire. In a long battle heavy units get tired soon (especially if you've taken them to the desert) and you can withdraw them and replace them with fresh troops, or if there's a lull you can send out depleted units (5 or 10 men or so left) and replace them with full ones. Use it to keep your army in peak condition. The AI's favorite use of it is to protect their one-man supergeneral units by withdrawing them the moment the battle begins.

Ajax

[matteus the inbred]

The AI's favorite use of it is to protect their one-man supergeneral units by withdrawing them the moment the battle begins.

ah, a deliberate policy. this one is currently featuring another thread somewhere in the main forum i think...

bog-standard horse archers have crappy morale and tend to run away a lot. they really need valour bonuses to be effective against anything but crap.

[Scurvy]

bog-standard horse archers have crappy morale and tend to run away a lot. they really need valour bonuses to be effective against anything but crap.

hmm actually i think they are better than inf with no val, as you can use them to shoot and tire out enemy cav that chase etc. and when the fighting starts if you place them behind enemies, they deplete morale even when not in combat then can chase routers so they arn't all that terrible without val....

[matteus the inbred]

hmm actually i think they are better than inf with no val, as you can use them to shoot and tire out enemy cav that chase etc. and when the fighting starts if you place them behind enemies, they deplete morale even when not in combat then can chase routers so they arn't all that terrible without val....

oh no, i agree with you, i meant comparatively with other types of horse archers...but then the same goes for most 'vanilla' troop types. i make a lot of use of HA and other 'crappy' cavalry like viking raiders when i can, any cavalry is better than none, and usually battle-winning. if i hadn't had HA in my army last night, for example, the Italian Doge would have gotten away
just don't rely on them to outfight Trebizond archers, for example. or even, as i discovered, unbroken UM...!

[Scurvy]

oh no, i agree with you, i meant comparatively with other types of horse archers...but then the same goes for most 'vanilla' troop types. i make a lot of use of HA and other 'crappy' cavalry like viking raiders when i can, any cavalry is better than none, and usually battle-winning. if i hadn't had HA in my army last night, for example, the Italian Doge would have gotten away
just don't rely on them to outfight Trebizond archers, for example. or even, as i discovered, unbroken UM...!

[Legorreto]

Here`s my particular case that originated the whole thread.

I was playing this battle with one army, without reinforcements (840 troops approx). The enemy came with three complete army reinforcements (1230 approx) and I decided I was able to handle this invasion to my province.

It was a bridge battle, and I got some ammo units (Camel Berbers and Mwhavids) Then I thought it would be easier to defeat of my oponents (Spanish) and so I dared.

The battle was balancing towards my side as I literally stormed them with javelins and arrows. I also sent one unit of AUM with very high valour to stop them at the end of the bridge and make them very vulnerable to my missiles.

So it happened, and the rate of kill was very on my side until... WHOOPS! no more ammo left... so I had to send my units towards the bridge to counterattack and have them retreat...

In short... They ended up bringing in lots of ammo units and literally fulminated my tired army. I lost all Camels and more than half my army and had only my Generals Unit: Peasants to face them.

I really was scared of loosing this general as he was the governor of the province and very high valour, so I finally decided to rout him and my left army so I could ransom them back and retrain them taking advantage on their high valour obtained during battle.

So i gave the order to Route and my very few army units (about 130) were basically swooped off by the spanish fresh Jinets and lost them almost completely. At the end of the battle I only got my general's unit with only 24 men. I indeed ransomed them and lost my province.

So I though Would it had been better to withdraw earlier and garrison my units and hold until bringing more reinforcements? or, Did I made the correct decision by Routing?

What do you think is the best in these situations?

[Scurvy]

withdrawing would work better there i think,

[Ludens]

Actually it does. I found out the hard way when I had a bunch of HA facing a bunch of Nubians. My general just routed away. I've turned two generals into girlymen b/c of that code. I've since just avoided being HA heavy which is unfortunate.

Oh dear. Well, at least it is good to know it, so your frustration was not in vain .

Legorreto, it depends on how much damage you could have done to them and how easy it would have been to retake the province. In your particular case, withdrawing earlier might have been a better idea, but it is always hard to determine the correct moment for this. Your high valour AUM unit was almost certainly going to be jinette-fodder.

[Loucipher]

I'd concur. Withdrawing the general's unit before the enemy could get it, especially as it was a high Valour governor, would be very wise. Especially as withdrawal doesn't earn him cowardice vices - isn't discretion a better part of valour?
Peasants would fare poorly against anything to start with, and against the Spanish Jinetes they would melt like snowball in hell after second volley of javelins. On the other hand, panicked flight with infantry is unwise when the enemy does have a cavalry unit ready to ride your men down... at least unless you have something else to make the sacrificial last stand.

[ajaxfetish]

Your best option would probably have been to leave a solid infantry unit (AUM or any kind of spears) to hold them at the bridge while the rest of your army withdrew in good order. After you had spent all of your missiles of course. The rearguard unit would be a complete sacrifice, but it'd let you keep the rest of your army intact. Without a bridge you can use one or two units of decent cavalry to keep the enemy distracted while your infantry march to safety.

Ajax