Quo Vadis, America?

[Watchman]

Know when the British Empire was at its largest ? Between the World Wars. At that point it was also pretty much also at its weakest, although that probably wasn't readily obvious at the time.

And how many in 1989 could tell the Soviets would be gone in two years ?

[Rodion Romanovich]

Know when the British Empire was at its largest ? Between the World Wars. At that point it was also pretty much also at its weakest, although that probably wasn't readily obvious at the time.

And how many in 1989 could tell the Soviets would be gone in two years ?

Large in terms of land ownage is a very poor measurement method for how well an empire resists itäs fall. Usually the turning point comes long before the largest land ownage is achieved. As for the USSR it hasn't gone through a total fall, all that's happened is that it's been transformed from a superpower empire into a very large and still powerful country - all that fell was the communistic regime and the occupation of areas which the USSR had no legal claim to and that had previously easily been possible to predict would keep rebellion for a long time until winning. The "fall" was simply that the new leaders realized how illegal the claims to these territories were and gave up the provinces in a fairly peaceful way instead of fighting repeated rebellions over territoriy that wasn't really that valuable to them.

What is meant by the word fall might vary, and not all "falls" are to worry about. The important thing is that there still, as I said, are very good possibilities of predicting what your actions will lead to if you're prepared to learn from history.

[Sheep]

Well we have definitely lost our luster in the rest of the world, I think. Except perhaps in some parts of Eastern Europe who are still grateful for the end of the Cold War. Maybe there needs to be another giant World War and we can come to the rescue again and everyone will love us again... for awhile.

At least I hope we come to the rescue... I hear Chinese is pretty hard to learn!

[Brenus]

“Except perhaps in some parts of Eastern Europe who are still grateful for the end of the Cold War.” Yeap, the Kazaks are definitively grateful: Now, the political opponents are boiled alive.
*****, I am a ennemy of freedom now...

[ajaxfetish]

Well, America has certainly seen darker days politically, such as the years leading up to the civil war. In that situation the country dealt with a severe internal crisis and had to reinvent itself considerably, but made it through. There were some very strong personalities involved, and some of those wounds still haven't healed, but the country has survived, and grown ever stronger.

As for a falling empire, the nation is still pretty young. I don't expect America to last forever, but I'm still optimistic about the future. We have a government that for all its faults seems to me remarkably similar to Machiavelli's ideal government (I'm not talking about the dictatorship in the Prince), and a flexible constitution that can change with time as necessary. It takes more than a few bad leaders or a few bad years to take a large country under.

And America is first and foremost a land of diversity. There are conservatives (not all of whom are fundamentalist Christian) and there are liberals. There are those who believe in evolution and those who don't. There are those who love their country and those who hate it. And there's everything in between. I don't think any one extreme viewpoint is powerful enough to overcome reality in America, however much it may seem that way to some in the country and the world.

I don't think my nation is always right, but I do believe in its core values and principles (and I think they are fairly unique in the history of the world). I don't think America is invincible, but I do think its strength is far from spent.

Ajax

[Azi Tohak]

The USA has its problems. So? Every country has its own difficulties. I believe ours are magnified both by the attention received because of our status in the world, combined with a faction in our own country hell-bent on using whatever means they can to discredit Bush and by extension Republicans.

I point out the riots in France, the home-grown terrorism in Britain (or UK, England... I don't even know what to call that country. Which is it?), the fear of the immigrant workers in Germany, and the beach race-riots of Australia. Every nation has its own problems, what makes you think the USA is any worse than the rest of the west?

Franconius, what do you mean by return to a normal mode? The mode under Clinton? Bush Sr.? Reagan? Roosevelt? Clinton had the same intel structure as GW. The same European CIA camps. The same domestic wire-tapping (Patriot Act comes from his Presidency), and did he not squabble with the UN?

Torture has been used for... longer than can be remembered. This is not the thread to question its morality (I'm sure there are hundreds of posts around here on THAT somewhere around here), and I simply don't see what the big deal is. You don't think MI6, the Mossad and whatever the German and French, and South African, and Indonesian, and Japanese, and Chinese, and Brazilian equivalents don't all use the same techniques?

I think this country is more divided than before, but I think much of that divide is simply made up. Like Red vs Blue. Even the most extreme Liberals I know (and being a college student, even in the mid-west, introduces you to some wackos) don't advocate rebellion, or anything else to damage the structure of the US. Sure, they might hate Bush (even though they don't know why [which I find delightful]), but they won't seriously try to install a Cult of Reason to completely remove all Christianity from anything and anyone. The most extreme conservatives I know don't advocate the killing of all brown people, or the killing of all gays as some would have you believe. Christian 'Fundamentalists' (I hate that term so much) that I know don't disagree with science, they are just not sold fully on evolution (drop a bunch of chemicals in a sterile bucket, and see what happens. Nothing living!).

I think our biggest problem is the philosophy that it is always someone else's fault. Passing the buck (yup, even at the top of the Nation) is a big problem. I don't know what it would take to fix it (a new President? Please. Politicians make their living from shifting blame).

I don't think this country is as unified or morally stable as it should be, but I think we are doing fine.

Azi

[Sheep]

Even the most extreme Liberals I know (and being a college student, even in the mid-west, introduces you to some wackos) don't advocate rebellion, or anything else to damage the structure of the US. Sure, they might hate Bush (even though they don't know why [which I find delightful]), but they won't seriously try to install a Cult of Reason to completely remove all Christianity from anything and anyone. The most extreme conservatives I know don't advocate the killing of all brown people, or the killing of all gays as some would have you believe.

Not that it detracts from your point, but I know people who advocate all of these things (not all the same people, of course).

[Franconicus]

... but I do believe in its core values and principles

Ajax,
I agree that these values are outstanding. I know that Bush reemphasized that the US and Germany share the same values of Freedom, Human Rights ... . However I have the feeling that these values are becoming not binding and convertable notions. Like Human Rights: of cause the US supports them, if not then they create the extre status of 'illegal combatants' (as if they were no humans) and then it is alright not to respect their rights. Right and wrong is only a question of a good notion and a good lawyer.
Other examples:
Torture - the US is not torturing, maybe some unfriendly treatment for unfriendly people. Or sometimes people are sent to other countries were they are tortured under the eyes of US officers - but the US is not toruring.
War against Iraq: Sad to see that the US government finds lawyers who declare that the war is legal according to the rules of the UN; while the rest of the free world does not agree.
Creationism - How to change scientific truth into a vage theory

Franconius, what do you mean by return to a normal mode?

I mean everything that happened after 9/11. It is no surprise that that changed the US society.
Clinton? Bush Sr.? Reagan? Roosevelt? Although I do not like some of them all worked on the fundament of the common values and in adjustment with the rest of the free world. Today we have a kind of 'agressive isolationism' in the US; if you know what I mean.