Cataphracts in R: TW.

[x-dANGEr]

I'm just commenting on this:

I stand corrected. Anyway, no dispute here: "Tanks" with arrows beat "tanks" without as a general purpose unit. No question.

In R: TW that doesn't seem to apply, Cata Archers are relatively weak facing a melee cata.

About them in BI, I seem to like Catas more even their, look below:

type             clibinarii
dictionary       clibinarii      ; Clibinarii
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Medium_1
soldier          clibinarii, 27, 0, 1
mount            horse cataphract
mount_effect     elephant -4, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, power_charge
formation        1.2, 4, 2.4, 6, 4, square, wedge
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         7, 4, arrow, 100, 30, missile, archery, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec
stat_sec         6, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, blunt, mace, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr    ap
stat_pri_armour  20, 6, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 3, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 1, -6, -1
stat_mental      5, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 50
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 1430, 300, 150, 220, 1430
ownership        sassanids

type             cataphracts
dictionary       cataphracts      ; Cataphracts
category         cavalry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          cataphracts, 27, 0, 1
mount            horse cataphract
mount_effect     elephant -4, camel -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, power_charge
formation        1.2, 4, 2.4, 6, 4, square, wedge
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         6, 9, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         9, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  18, 10, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 4, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      0, 1, -6, -1
stat_mental      9, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 50
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 1390, 337, 140, 210, 1390
ownership        sassanids

Clearly, Clibinarii 7 damage arrows won't badly effect the 18 armour of Catas (And maybe the 4 points of shielding nto sure though). Moving on to the Secondary weapon, They have 6 damage points with AP + 7 charge bonus. While the Catas have 9 base melee sword damage + 9 from spear charge.
All that added to the fact that Catas armor in melee is 28, while Clibnarii's is 24. And still, the morale effect, Clibnariis' morale looks bad while Catas liik quit fine (5 to 9).

[Watchman]

Of course Cata Archers get buggered by vanilla Catas - those AP maces are a pretty big factor when you mostly rely on armour for defense and only one side has them.

BI Catas seems to have a pretty scarily high defense score in HTH though - even if you halve the armour, they still score 23 from the total armour/skill/shield sum and that's *before* exp and upgrades are in...

Hmm... Clibis have attack 6 and total defense 26, Catas 9 and 23 (against AP) respectively. They would actually seem to even out - the attack score of both falls short of the other's defense sum by exactly 17 points. 'Course, that's assuming simply summing up the totals tells the whole story which may not be a truthful assumption...

[Doug-Thompson]

While you've done your research, x-dANGEr, your looking at a one-on-one confrontation between two "tank" units. In overall usefulness, a tank with arrows beats a tank without them every time.

For instance, suppose there's some horse archers running around killing your infantry. You sent cats to get them, they just run away. Send some tanks with arrows to cover the infantry, though. They'll shoot any approaching HA to pieces while they're virtually immune behind armor. Ranged tanks are great infantry killers, too. Include them in your attack, and you have an effective archer unit that can't be killed or driven off without a major committment of force.

[x-dANGEr]

Yes, but still, I see Clibnarii has 'no' use in melee. Their morale is too bad that I consider it a risk to get them into melee while outnumbered. So maybe a HA that has some nice armor, that's what I'd describe them.

[Watchman]

You kidding ? They're pretty much the backbone troops of the Sassanids. Deployed even remotely sensibly they'll pretty much crush anything when commited to melee. Personally I tend to use a couple of Levy Spearmen as a second-wave support line to tie up anything that tries to outflank already engaged Clibs; given that the Clibs are sent after the better-grade enemy units present to begin with, the Levies are often able to rout whatever is left running around. Well, okay, Legio Lanciarii usually get first tied up with Levies and then flanked by Clibs, but that's the only exception to the theme.

The ERE have so much better troops to cover *their* superheavies' arses with it's not even funny.

[dkdnt]

speaking about cataphracts
check this out


they killed my elephants(i realy dont know i i recruit those) and other kataphracts. but they didnt count in this man. and he didnt count on +4 xp points.

[x-dANGEr]

You kidding ? They're pretty much the backbone troops of the Sassanids. Deployed even remotely sensibly they'll pretty much crush anything when commited to melee. Personally I tend to use a couple of Levy Spearmen as a second-wave support line to tie up anything that tries to outflank already engaged Clibs; given that the Clibs are sent after the better-grade enemy units present to begin with, the Levies are often able to rout whatever is left running around. Well, okay, Legio Lanciarii usually get first tied up with Levies and then flanked by Clibs, but that's the only exception to the theme.

The ERE have so much better troops to cover *their* superheavies' arses with it's not even funny.

Well, if you offer me a cata and a clib, I'd pick a Cata for flanking. You know what can 18 damage do to a unit from a flank.. I played the Saissaidns, and mostly relied on clibs, but I got a headache out of it. Playing on VH/VH, my levies always routed exactly 3 seconds after being engaged with the First Legions, even if I'd flank, a chain routing might start and my clibs follow them. So you see, their morale stabbed me in back a couple of times. Then I relied on Catas + Immortals + 1 ele a stack and a nuch of troops combined with HA.