West Lothian Question

[Duke Malcolm]

A former Tory Home Secretary, Lord Baker, has introduced a Bill seeking to answer the West Lothian Question. The Bill seeks to prevent Scottish and Welsh MPs and Peers from voting on matters devolved to their respective devolved assemblies.

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This is a terrible bill, and will only give the SNP/Plaid Cymru more ammunition for their campaigns for independence. They will say that Scottish and Welsh MPs are second-rate MPs, second to their English counterparts, that this is undervaluing Scots.

In my opinion, there should not be this "half-house" for English matters, either fully devolve the powers to a new English Parliament or take devolution away from Scotland and Wales, restore their equality in Britain.

As for the prevention of Peers to vote on Englsh matters, it is absurd. The Kings of Great Britain between 1602 and 1707 appointed numerous Scottish Lords of Parliament, especially King James VI in his attempts to united Scotland with England. Also, preventing Scottish Peers from voting on English matters is a breach of Article 23 of the Treaty of the Act of Union which guarantees the equal rights of Scottish and English Peers, hence rendering such a ban unconstitutional.

[Tribesman]

The tories want to restrict voting rights for Welsh and Scottish MPs .
hmmmmmm.....could that have anything to do with them being exceptionally bad at getting anyone elected in those provinces ?
Oh hold on , they had really good results last time , they actually managed to get one in Scotland , and an absolutely magnificent three in Wales .

[scotchedpommes]

I find the idea of Scottish MPs voting on matters that only affect England
absurd.

[As for the rest of your post, Malcolm, I can only say that your views seem more
than slightly outdated - so much so as to make any discussion nigh on pointless.]

[Templar Knight]

Scottish MPs should not be able to vote on issues effecting England - period.

[English assassin]

Scottish MPs should not be able to vote on issues effecting England - period.

Ditto, with bells on. Of course the Labour government will never allow it as they could never goven England without the massed ranks of Jimmies. (A little bit of big brother style political balance there just so we don't have to bleep Tribesman out)

The SNP will talk bollocks whatever we do, I don't see why allowing Scottish MPs to impose top up fees in English Universities is a price worth paying as a result. (Oh, and OT but priceless, Scottish students get a better deal in Scottish Universities, as do students who are citizens of any other EU state thanks to EU law on discrimination on the grounds of nationality, but its perfectly legal to charge English students more that Scottish students because being English isn't a nationality )

[Templar Knight]

I don't see how they can call it discrimination. The top up fee issue was only about Schools in England and Wales if I am not mistaken, it had nothing to do with Scotland so therefore why did we vote? They are giving us a bad name

[Duke Malcolm]

[As for the rest of your post, Malcolm, I can only say that your views seem more
than slightly outdated - so much so as to make any discussion nigh on pointless.]

Assuming you are referring to the equal rights of peers preserved in the Treat of the Act of Union 1707, I don't see why. A case was brought before the Court of Session in 1953 upon the coronation of Her Majesty the Queen, concerning her description as "Elizabeth II" since she is the first Queen Elizabeth of all Great Britain, and the second Queen Elizabeth only of England. The Lord President of the Court of Session said that it was entirely up to Her Majesty to decide how Her Majesy is described, but said that since there is no provision in the Treaty of the Act of Union for the Parliament of Great Britain to be able to amend the afore mentioned act at will, the courts may repeal any act which contravenes the treaty.

i was very annoyed when tutition fees were brought in, by scotish votes, thats just not democracy

Imagine how annoyed the Scots were when it was English votes that passed such acts that prohibited the use of Gaelic in schools, abolished the right of Scots to bear arms, and numerous others...

[King Henry V]

Well you were a bit naughty at the time...twice...

[BDC]

Imagine how annoyed the Scots were when it was English votes that passed such acts that prohibited the use of Gaelic in schools, abolished the right of Scots to bear arms, and numerous others...

Yes well imagine how many English people got killed by rampaging Scots. No point dwelling on the past, not like it can be changed.

[Duke Malcolm]

Yes well imagine how many English people got killed by rampaging Scots. No point dwelling on the past, not like it can be changed.

More Scots were killed than English, most of the Government armies that the Jacobites fought against had a majority of Scots... just being a little pedantic perhaps, one of my habits... We had an unionist History teacher when being taught about the '45-'46 rebellion...

Was referring in general to your clinging to outdated traditions, and
conservatism, which has thankfully has been removed from the Scottish
parliament, for the most part.

Firstly, what outdated traditions are these?
Secondly, the Conservatives have not been removed, not in the least. They have, I believe, 17 MSPs, and they gained votes in the latest by-election. Not only that, but the numbers in the Universities' Conservative and Unionist Party Associations have increased more than any other and are also, I think, the largest. They have not been removed, certainly not for the most part.

As far as I aware Westminster is still the "mother parliament" of Scotland - devolution has not removed its sovereignty or its precedence over Scotland. If they want, Westminster can even abolish the Scottish Parliament tomorrow.

Parliamentary Sovereignty may be fundamental to the English Constitution, but it is the Sovereignty of the Community of the Realm, the People, that is fundamental to Scots Law. This fact was re-iterated in the case I referred to earlier. Since a majority of the Community of the Realm wanted devolution, one could argue that it has the same status as Westminster. No doubt if devolution was removed without a referendum, someone would take the issue up at the Court of Session.

[scotchedpommes]

Assuming you are referring to the equal rights of peers preserved in the Treat of the Act of Union 1707,

Was referring in general to your clinging to outdated traditions, and
conservatism, which has thankfully has been removed from the Scottish
parliament, for the most part.

Imagine how annoyed the Scots were when it was English votes that passed such acts that prohibited the use of Gaelic in schools, abolished the right of Scots to bear arms, and numerous others...

I think BDC addressed this perfectly well, simply by saying there's no point
dwelling on the past.

[Rank Bajin]

Sorry, but to be honest, far, far too much is made out about the West Lothian Question. The constant blubbering from English M.P.s about those nasty Scots voting on solely English issues is quite a laugh.

The West Lothian Question really is a load of b******s, perpetuated only by those who misunderstand how the UK works. The truth is that English MP's actually vote on Scottish issues in bills with quite frightening frequency. Have any of you heard of the Sewel Convention and what it pertains? Nope?

Here is an article I got off Wikipedia that explains the reality of the West Lothian Question. Hope it helps in dispelling the 'crap' that surrounds the whole situation.

West Lothian question

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
(Redirected from West Lothian Question)

The West Lothian question is a question posed by Tam Dalyell, MP for the Scottish constituency of West Lothian during the debate over Scottish devolution in the 1970s, and which is still relevant after the 1999 establishment of the Scottish Parliament. The name was coined in 1977 by Enoch Powell.

The question is twofold:

How can it be right that MPs elected to Westminster from Scottish constituencies have no ability to affect the issues of their constituents which have been devolved to the Scottish Parliament and;
If power over Scottish affairs is devolved to a Scottish Parliament, how can it be right that MPs representing Scottish constituencies in the Parliament of the United Kingdom will have the power to vote on issues affecting England (including those that don't affect Scotland), but English MPs will not have the power to vote on Scottish issues?

With the creation of the Scottish Parliament, this anomaly has come into existence, though without great protest in England.
While it seems unlikely that Scottish MPs will be prevented from voting on English domestic affairs, the number of MPs to which Scotland is entitled (which was previously disproportionately high for its population) was reduced at the United Kingdom general election, 2005, from 72 to 59.
Protests have been growing recently, especially after legislation for the creation of foundation hospitals in England, an extremely controversial policy, was passed due to the votes of Scottish MPs when a majority of English MPs had voted against. A key vote of proposals to introduce university top-up fees, in the Higher Education Act 2004 also passed only due to Scottish MPs voting (even though almost a third of the provisions of the bill directly extended to Scotland), and this has generated further calls for reform, especially as the policy directly affected the funding for Scottish universities, even though they are under the jurisdiction of the Scottish Parliament.

Contents

1 Reality of the West Lothian Question
2 Proposed solutions
3 See also
4 External links

Reality of the West Lothian Question

Recently, with the new constitutional landscape in the UK questions have arisen over the legitimacy of the West Lothian Question - which was first posed back in the 1970's.

Many commentators point out that the principles of the West Lothian question are logically inconsistent. Fundamental to the UK Constitution is the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, that the Parliament of the United Kingdom at Westminster is the sovereign legislature of all nations of the United Kingdom. The Scottish Parliament was formed by statute - the Scotland Act 1998 - and is, thus, a creation of Westminster. The enactment of the Scotland Act 1998 conferred no sovereign status on the Scottish Parliament, and crucially has not changed the status of the UK Parliament as the supreme legislature of Scotland.

As a consequence critics argue that the legal ability of English MPs to vote on Scottish legislation has not been diminished by devolution. Furthermore some argue that it is simply not true that English MPs do not get to vote on issues that are purely within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament - the so-called devolved issues. The use of the Sewel Convention whereby the Scottish Parliament consents to Westminster legislating on issues that are technically devolved to it are an increasingly common feature with an average of a dozen bills per year passed by Westminster impinging on the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Some examples of such legislation passed by Westminster include the Sunday Working (Scotland) Act 2003, the Gender Recognition Act 2004, the Civil Partnerships Act 2004 the Scottish Parliament (Constituencies) Act 2004, the Children Act 2004, the Higher Education Act 2004 the Inquiries Act 2005, the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 and the Serious and Organised Crime Act 2005. This is in addition to the many bills passed by Westminster pertaining to the reserved issues which are controlled Westminster for the whole of the United Kingdom, such as defence, national security, foreign affairs and monetary and economic issues.

A situation akin to that presented by the West Lothian Question did exist between 1921 and 1972, when there was a Parliament of Northern Ireland that legislated for Northern Ireland, whilst Northern Ireland continued to send MPs to Westminster, who could vote on matters affecting Great Britain only, although with disproportionately fewer MPs than would be expected from the relative populations. During this era Ulster Unionist Party was closely associated with the Conservative Party.

Proposed solutions

There are calls by some for a Devolved English Parliament. If this (and the existing Welsh Assembly) had full legislative powers, this would resolve the question. But so far there is little sign of this being wanted by the English. Others propose barring Scottish MPs from voting on matters that do not affect Scotland or cutting the number of Scottish MPs even further to about 40 (following the precedent of the creation of the Northern Ireland Parliament when the number of MPs at Westminster was dramatically cut to a number below the standard ratio of electorate to MPs for the rest of the country). They believe that the compromise of a reduced voice for Scotland in exchange for Scottish MPs being able to vote on English matters would be the most acceptable solution.

Another solution might be the dissolution of the United Kingdom leading to the constituent countries - England, Scotland and Wales - regaining their status as independent states (see English independence, Scottish independence, Welsh independence). Whilst this is unlikely, it is not infeasible given the strength of the independence movement - especially in Scotland, and to a lesser extent Wales.

[KukriKhan]

But Lord Baker - who served in Margaret Thatcher's Cabinet - said: "There should be no legislation without representation."

-from the linked article.

That seems a reasonable sentiment. Wars have been fought over the concept.

So, a question: Scot MP's vote in the Scottish Paliament AND the UK Parliament? One guy, 2 venues? But English MP's only vote in UK Parliament? (OK, that's 3 questions - but I'm confused). :)

[InsaneApache]

So, a question: Scot MP's vote in the Scottish Paliament AND the UK Parliament? One guy, 2 venues? But English MP's only vote in UK Parliament? (OK, that's 3 questions - but I'm confused). :)

I'll try to explain.

In the UK we have a 'national' Parliament based in Westminster.

As a result of devolution Scotland and Wales (to some extent Northern Ireland) have assembles or parliaments.

The 'national' Parliament decides policies such as health, education, defence and taxation.

The devolved assemblies have policies that appertain to their own 'national' interests.

However the sticking point is this.
In the 'national' parliament all MPs have a vote during the division. Unfortunately that may well involve them (Scottish and Welsh members) making decisions that would not directly impinge on their electorate. A good example of this is the so-called top-up fees that English students have to pay to go to university. Scottish students do not have to pay this as the Scottish parliament rejected the proposal. However the Scottish MPs sitting in Westminster do have a vote on this and other issues. In effect they can make laws for the English without a plebiscite from the English it affects.

[KukriKhan]

OK, I think I've got it. Thanks.

So: the Scots have an assembly, and Wales either has or soon will have an assembly - but England does not, its affairs being legislated by the big GB Parliament (which includes representatives, err...MP's from Scotland and Wales).

The solution seems to be: create an English Assembly.

But: the current GB national majority party (Labour) doesn't want that because they need the Scotland and Wales MP's votes to pass their programs.

Is that about right?

[InsaneApache]

Apart from Wales about to get an assembly (it has had one for a couple of years now) I would say you encapsulated it in a nutshell.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

i was very annoyed when tutition fees were brought in, by scotish votes, thats just not democracy

[English assassin]

The solution seems to be: create an English Assembly

No disrespect Kukri but any solution that involves MORE politicians to batten onto us like blowflies on a rotting corpse is no solution IMHO.

Also the position is further complicated by the fact that the Scottish Parliament has wider powers than the Welsh assembly (don't ask) so that, for instance, it is right that welsh MPs could vite on top up fees, but not Scottish MPs.

The lesson of all this is that yunno, trendy 'ittle cool britannia prime ministers ought not to start interferring with things they don't understand. (cf also House of Lords when we are STILL waiting for a proper second chamber which Blair will also not deliver on because, basically he only likes democracy when it means people vote for him)