Banned From Owning Animals

[Vladimir]

A question for those from the UK: Who supports this law? Here's what I'm talking about.

Two students who sent a hamster through the post as a drunken prank have been fined and banned from owning animals. So what else can't you put in a parcel? The hamster found in a postbox is now named First Class. And he's lucky to be alive. If he hadn't gnawed through the envelope and been spotted by the postman, he might have died in the sorting machine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4623754.stm

It's a HAMSTER! I guess you're allowed to send insects and lower forms of life through the mail but what about the sentence? It was a stupid prank from some of the "best and brightest" but 10 years? Let me guess, because they can feel pain it is abuse? If ants are found to experience pain should there be a penalty for killing them too? Animal cruelty is wrong and (depending on religion) disrespectful but is this a realistic sentence? Are you allowed to kill rats and mice in the UK or do you have to obtain their consent for assisted suicide?

[Fragony]

It's a rather cruel thing to do. Seems fitting to me.

[R'as al Ghul]

It's a HAMSTER! I guess you're allowed to send insects and lower forms of life through the mail but what about the sentence? It was a stupid prank from some of the "best and brightest" but 10 years? Let me guess, because they can feel pain it is abuse? If ants are found to experience pain should there be a penalty for killing them too? Animal cruelty is wrong and (depending on religion) disrespectful but is this a realistic sentence? Are you allowed to kill rats and mice in the UK or do you have to obtain their consent for assisted suicide?

Well, they only got banned from owning animals. Seems fair to me.
10 years is plenty of time to think about it. Clearly they aren't friends
of animals or they wouldn't have done it.
Did you know that horses do feel pain but can't express it?
This is true for most animals and frankly, science doesn't know enough
to determine if an animal feels and what. I just recently saw a program
about ants. One of them was stuck to a carnivorous plant and struggling
to get out. The glue was too sticky but another ant, who passed by, joined the effort and pulled its mate out. Interesting, isn't it?
Mice and rats can at least feel fear and they do express their stress by screaming.
Poor hamster, I feel sorry for him.

[Fragony]

Did you know that horses do feel pain but can't express it?

They sure can. It is the most horrible sound you will ever hear. Horse had broken out, and a motorbike ripped of his leg.

[R'as al Ghul]

They sure can. It is the most horrible sound you will ever hear. Horse had broken out, and a motorbike ripped of his leg.

I'm too afraid to imagine. I stand corrected.
I was thinking about minor pains, not moments of death.
If it has muscle restraints for example (can be very painfull), they tend
to be quiet about it. Only when riding them you'll notice that sth is wrong.

[Ja'chyra]

Seems entirely reasonable to me, I can't stand animal cruelty.

[Devastatin Dave]

Well they're lucky I wasn't the judge, I would have boxed those guys up and labeled the box "Not Fragile, please feel free to kick the shit out of this box" and mail it third class overseas.

[R'as al Ghul]

Seems entirely reasonable to me, I can't stand animal cruelty.

It really makes me upset.
I don't know what's up with me today but just look at this little fellow:

He's sitting on a hand. How can you want to harm a living being so small and fragile? I simply can't imagine the motivation behind it.

[Ja'chyra]

Well they're lucky I wasn't the judge, I would have boxed those guys up and labeled the box "Not Fragile, please feel free to kick the shit out of this box" and mail it third class overseas.

Guess who's back
Back again
Yadda yadda....

[Vladimir]

So again, what about the rats and mice? We all know how beloved the brown rat is in Europe so do you guys adopt them? Maybe turn your home into a “wildlife refuge”? Nothing happened to the poor little critter (that's his picture in the article). A fine would be appropriate and I doubt those people will "think about it" much. So how is that enforced? If a bobby sees you holding a goldfish is he going to beat you with his billy club while blowing his whistle? Or do you have to wear a scarlet "H"?

Hamster mutilation = bad

Hamster in the mail = funny (more like point and laugh funny)

[Fragony]

So again, what about the rats and mice? We all know how beloved the brown rat is in Europe so do you guys adopt them? Maybe turn your home into a “wildlife refuge”? Nothing happened to the poor little critter (that's his picture in the article). A fine would be appropriate and I doubt those people will "think about it" much. So how is that enforced? If a bobby sees you holding a goldfish is he going to beat you with his billy club while blowing his whistle? Or do you have to wear a scarlet "H"?

Hamster mutilation = bad

Hamster in the mail = funny (more like point and laugh funny)

I don't find it funny, I find it cruel. Poor little guy must have been terrified. I don't understand it, why harm something when it isn't needed. Rats carry diseases, that doesn't make killing them fun.

[Ser Clegane]

Hamster in the mail = funny (more like point and laugh funny)

[Vladimir]

Interesting. I suppose it's illegal to own snakes too as they tend to eat LIVE animals. I imagine that they don't go peaceably and without fear.

[English assassin]

We all know how beloved the brown rat is in Europe so do you guys adopt them?

As it happens I had pet rats when I was a kid. They make very good pets for children. Much better than hamsters, which don't really do much.

Are you allowed to kill rats and mice in the UK or do you have to obtain their consent for assisted suicide?

You are allowed to kill pests provided you do not cause them unnecessary suffering. So eg traps or poisons have to be approved. Seems reasonable to me.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Okay, I don't follow the PETA line about animals needing to be treated as well as humans (better?).

My deeper concern for the hamster is absent...sorry.

That noted, the actions taken were insipid and cruel. Cruelty, as my sig suggests, is more of a tantrum than anything else and, as with my own toddler, tantrums cannot be rewarded if socially acceptable behavior is to result.

If we can ban felons from owning guns, we can prevent these yahoos from owning animals (at least to the extent that such is enforceable).

Cruelty to animals is demeaning to the humans involved and has been correlated with a tendency toward cruelty and violence to one's own species. A bit of a "watch" on these chaps in order to ensure that it was the ethanol that sparked it is not unwarranted.

[Ser Clegane]

Interesting. I suppose it's illegal to own snakes too as they tend to eat LIVE animals. I imagine that they don't go peaceably and without fear.

It's a bit of a difference if you just torture and kill an animal just for your entertainment, rather than feeding another animal to keep it alive.

BTW, as you are focusing your questions on Europe - what's the situation in the US.
AFAIK, you would get into some trouble if you torture a dog "just to have some fun" - if this is the case, where is the line drawn in the US?

EDIT: also, keep in mind that these brats weren't punished particularly harsh. Not allowed to own an animal? Big deal for them I guess - so much potential "fun" lost...

[Devastatin Dave]

As it happens I had pet rats when I was a kid. They make very good pets for children. Much better than hamsters, which don't really do much.



.

Domesticated rats make excellent pets. Easily trained and very lovable. They bite less than hamsters. Wild rats carry diseases and should be humanely killed. I had a pet Boa when i was a kid and sold it because I did not like having to give it something live. I would usually stun the mouse (eventually rat when Ellen got 6 and a half feet long) by slamming the bag on the ground with the mouse/rat in it. This was horrible. The pet trade in general is a very unpleasant business, and I'm glad I'm no longer involved in it.

[R'as al Ghul]

A fine would be appropriate and I doubt those people will "think about it" much. So how is that enforced?

You have a point here. The enforcement can't be guaranteed.
I suggest to fine people like them to do a fair amount of "social hours"
in an animal asylum where they can learn to treat fellow living beings
with respect.
Btw, not all snake owners feed living food. Besides, an animal killing
another animal to sustain itself is the course of nature.

[Vladimir]

If we can ban felons from owning guns, we can prevent these yahoos from owning animals (at least to the extent that such is enforceable).

Which is an important point: How do you enforce it? So far all the responses have been emotional responses. A fine is definite and enforceable but banning ownership? Do you have to register your pet hamsters? Compare the above responses to the thread about France's nuclear threat and most of you will if your priorities are straight.

[Ser Clegane]

Compare the above responses to the thread about France's nuclear threat and most of you will if your priorities are straight.

Uhm ... you started this thread, didn't you? If you think it's silly to respond to such threads, what is your opinion about starting threads on such issues?

[Vladimir]

It's a bit of a difference if you just torture and kill an animal just for your entertainment, rather than feeding another animal to keep it alive.

Even if the:

Poor little guy must have been terrified

?

BTW, as you are focusing your questions on Europe

BTW it happened in Europe (England). Let's try to stay focused shall we and not turn it into (yet another) US bashing thread. If you'll refer to the original post nothing negative was said about the UK.

[Fragony]

It's a bit of a difference if you just torture and kill an animal just for your entertainment, rather than feeding another animal to keep it alive.

Exactly. It must suck to be eaten alive but it is their purpose. Being cruel just for the sake of it is something different. I believe live animals is illegal here in Holland, there are people that like snakes for some reason, maybe they know.

[Devastatin Dave]

BTW, as you are focusing your questions on Europe - what's the situation in the US.
AFAIK, you would get into some trouble if you torture a dog "just to have some fun" - if this is the case, where is the line drawn in the US?

...

They are procecuted but not as harsh as i think they should be. I called the cops on a neighbor that had left his dog outside in freezing temps for 2 days straight. I had also witnessed him kicking the dog a few months ago. He got fined and the dog was taken away. I went to the Humane's Society every other day to make sure the dog was adopted. The dog was but if it hadn't have been adopted, I would have adopted him to ensure he wasn't sent to the city pound and put to sleep. I hope he's in a better home. God put us on this Earth to take care of the animals, not mail them for entertainment or a cheap laugh.

[Vladimir]

Uhm ... you started this thread, didn't you? If you think it's silly to respond to such threads, what is your opinion about starting threads on such issues?

I never stated that it was silly to respond but the responses are definitely silly. I asked about the law, most people responded to the (again, unharmed) hamster.

[Ser Clegane]

Even if the:

?

So the hamster was tortured and they didn't care if it had died for their fun - what's not understandable about that?

BTW it happened in Europe (England). Let's try to stay focused shall we and not turn it into (yet another) US bashing thread.

Of course it happened in Europe - but you seemed so totally baffled that such a sentence is possible that it implied that the legal situation in the US is different - I merely wanted to know if this is really the case.
What does this have to do with US bashing?

[Devastatin Dave]

Vlad, to get back on topic and keeping things civil, what do you think the proper punishment should be if you were the judge?

[Ser Clegane]

I never stated that it was silly to respond but the responses are definitely silly. I asked about the law, most people responded to the (again, unharmed) hamster.

You didn't "just ask" about the law. You made pretty pretty clear that you think it would be inappropriate to punish people for torturing a hamster:

It's a HAMSTER! I guess you're allowed to send insects and lower forms of life through the mail but what about the sentence? It was a stupid prank from some of the "best and brightest" but 10 years? Let me guess, because they can feel pain it is abuse? If ants are found to experience pain should there be a penalty for killing them too? Animal cruelty is wrong and (depending on religion) disrespectful but is this a realistic sentence? Are you allowed to kill rats and mice in the UK or do you have to obtain their consent for assisted suicide?

The responses made clear that most patrons who bothered to respond do not share your view on the issue.

[Devastatin Dave]

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/oldbib/qb9518.htm
A lot of information, but it might answer some questions on animal welfare laws.

[master of the puppets]

i say good job, to the judge, such abuse to small animals leads such abuse to large animals.

also do you think that they will really try to enforce it, i mean if child protection services can't protect the kids (i believe that one in foster care almost died a month ago) than whats to say anyones gonna be doing a reasonable check of whether these jerks are skinning cats.

[Vladimir]

First: A fine would be appropriate. I'm not sure of an amount in Euros as I have little frame of reference when it comes to that. If the critter was harmed a stiff fine and maybe a ban on ownership would be appropriate. That's what I was trying to find out in regards to this recent news story I just came across.

You didn't "just ask" about the law. You made pretty clear that you think it would be inappropriate to punish people for torturing a hamster:


The responses made clear that most patrons who bothered to respond do not share your view on the issue.

I believe I said

Animal cruelty is wrong

and asked:

is this a realistic sentence

The former states that my beliefs are the same as most of those here and the latter clearly addressed the issue of law. I know "torture" is a fashionable word now which to some means "disrespectful" (McCain). You're letting your emotions control you and twisting my statements (not an attack but I can't see how you're making those conclusions). And why did you quote "just ask"? I never wrote that.