MAKEDONIA...the land of aliens...

[Papewaio]

Sorry Hellenes, but there is plenty of places in the world that are named after the conquours far after the time that the conquours have left.

Just check out the Commonwealth Nations of the world and you will find plenty of colonial names from Britain, France and the Netherlands.

New Zealand... that is named after an area in the Netherlands.

I have never heard a Dutch man complain about that.

Likewise the inverse is true, just because Melbourne in Australia has a large Greek speaking and Greek ethnic group it does not make Melbourne part of Greece.

Name Adm. C C 2001-03-18 f
1 Athínai ATT 745,514
2 Thessaloníki MAK 363,987
3 Piraiévs ATT 175,697
4 Pátrai PEL 161,114
5 Peristérion ATT 137,918
6 Iráklion KRI 133,012
7 Lárisa THE 124,786
8 Kallithéa ATT 109,609
9 Níkaia ATT 93,086
10 Kalamariá MAK 87,255

[Sardo]

You know, back when the Romans conquered our region, they called it Belgica. Then some German barbarians came and took the land for themselves. Some fifteen hundred years later, a new nation is founded on part of this territory and called 'Belgium', even though the inhabitants didn't really have a lot to do with the original Celtic and Roman inhabitants. I don't think anybody complained about that, though.

Many cities and regions today still bear their ancient names, even though the people living there now are not the descendants of the original inhabitants. The name 'Macedonia' does not refer only to the people who lived in that land in Alexander's day, it's what the land is called, and I guess the Slav people who came to live there didn't really see a reason to change a perfectly good name. It's not as if the ancient Macedonians are still around to take offense. In my very humble opinion, the Greeks ought to just suck it up and get on with more important affairs. Or will they next reclaim Syracuse, Marseille and Alexandria because of their Greek names?

And by the way, if our 'History of the Balkans' professor has his facts straight, many of today's Greeks aren't even descendants of the ancient Greeks (at least the ones living in Greece itself). Greece was settled by Slavs in the early Middle Ages and only in the 9th century did the Emperors hellenize the country anew by bringing Greeks over from Anatolia. Now, assuredly you know your own country's history better than I do, and could say wether or no this is true, but if true, should you then not give all your ancient cities new names?

[Red Peasant]

Tis true. When the Eastern Church sent missionaries to the Peloponnese in the early medieval period they needed interpreters to speak to the inhabitants.
I love the modern Greeks, they are a good laugh, but on issues that touch upon history and identity they become almost pathologically paranoid, irrational and nationalistic, even threatening.

[hellenes]

You know, back when the Romans conquered our region, they called it Belgica. Then some German barbarians came and took the land for themselves. Some fifteen hundred years later, a new nation is founded on part of this territory and called 'Belgium', even though the inhabitants didn't really have a lot to do with the original Celtic and Roman inhabitants. I don't think anybody complained about that, though.

Many cities and regions today still bear their ancient names, even though the people living there now are not the descendants of the original inhabitants. The name 'Macedonia' does not refer only to the people who lived in that land in Alexander's day, it's what the land is called, and I guess the Slav people who came to live there didn't really see a reason to change a perfectly good name. It's not as if the ancient Macedonians are still around to take offense. In my very humble opinion, the Greeks ought to just suck it up and get on with more important affairs. Or will they next reclaim Syracuse, Marseille and Alexandria because of their Greek names?

And by the way, if our 'History of the Balkans' professor has his facts straight, many of today's Greeks aren't even descendants of the ancient Greeks (at least the ones living in Greece itself). Greece was settled by Slavs in the early Middle Ages and only in the 9th century did the Emperors hellenize the country anew by bringing Greeks over from Anatolia. Now, assuredly you know your own country's history better than I do, and could say wether or no this is true, but if true, should you then not give all your ancient cities new names?

How do you know that we arent or are decendants of our ancestors? Is that what Im saying? Its very easy to make assumptions and vague statements without any clear knowledge of the cicumstances but my position remains:

"Well if we as Greeks can start calling ourselves as Finnish, launching a huge global propaganda campaign that the inhabitants of Finland are NOT Finnish, that it was us NOT the inhabitants of Finland that wrote Kalevala, we took the Finnish flag and on top of that didnt learn a single Finnish word kept speaking Greek AND claiming to be the ONLY true Finnish whilst having 100% Greek culture and 0% Finnish then the Skopjan Bulgars can call themselves whatever they want..."

Papewaio
You cant bring the multinational colonial states in this equation, just because the English (mainly) colonists of the country called "New Zealand" invented an artificial nation of "New Zealanders" (same as the "Americans", "Canadians", "Australians") that doesnt mean that they have any distinct culture (to a great degree) and it means that they are just an amalgamation of different cultures and ethnicities, the Balkans are a VERY different matter and with posters like that



Which everyone in this thread pretends that havent seen, and with the Skopjan constitution at the founding of that state stating that there are "Macedonian minorities" in Greece that have to be "liberated" from the Greek supression...
Its very sad to see people turning a blind eye on a huge minsiformation campaign and insisting on a skewed view on history just in the name of a supposed justification of pure plagiarism...

Hellenes

[Idaho]

How do you know that we arent or are decendants of our ancestors?

I can absolutely guarantee that you are the decendant of your ancestors

Some little country calls itself a name you don't like and makes a load of bold statements that mean nothing. You really think that Macedonia is going to attack Greece - a NATO country ?!?!?

Don't worry about it. Go find another hobby.

[Sardo]

You're right: I don't have a clear knowledge of the circumstances. All I know is that in the region of Macedonia now lives a Slav people that has taken its name from the land it inhabits. You Greeks aren't living in Finnland, so I'd say calling yourselves Finns would be less legitimite than people in Macedonia calling themselves Macedonians.

I don't know wether or not there really are any Macedonian minorities in Greece or how much of a disinformation campaign is being waged by Macedonian authorities, but I would like to see you bring up some more evidence that they are claiming the ancient Macedonian achievements as their own. It all seems a bit polemical right now. That poster you linked - no context, no explanation, nada. I don't know what it's about.

But then I imagine few people do know what anything is about in the Balkans.

[hellenes]

You're right: I don't have a clear knowledge of the circumstances. All I know is that in the region of Macedonia now lives a Slav people that has taken its name from the land it inhabits. You Greeks aren't living in Finnland, so I'd say calling yourselves Finns would be less legitimite than people in Macedonia calling themselves Macedonians.

I don't know wether or not there really are any Macedonian minorities in Greece or how much of a disinformation campaign is being waged by Macedonian authorities, but I would like to see you bring up some more evidence that they are claiming the ancient Macedonian achievements as their own. It all seems a bit polemical right now. That poster you linked - no context, no explanation, nada. I don't know what it's about.

But then I imagine few people do know what anything is about in the Balkans.

Oh well if one country had a small portion of an ancient land with which ancients inhabitants the CURRENT inhabitants had NO relation, be it cultural, lingual or through ancestry would that give them ANY right to name their newly invented state after the name of the MAIN region that is in the neighbourghing state which current inhabitants have lingual, cultural and ancestrial relations to the ancient Makedones?
This link shows the espionage and sabotage activities of a Skopjan Bulgar group INSIDE GREECE!!! With clear expansionistic view into annexing Makedonia to that Bulgarian state...
http://www.florina.org/
The misinformation and propaganda doesnt end here:
http://www.macedoniainfo.com/
That poster is showing Makedonia as a supressed by the evil Greeks place that should be "liberated" by the "true" "Macedonians"=Skopjan Bulgars...
What about these?
http://www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/w...e.asp?nid=1945
It is clear that the Skopjans are JUST Bulgars that are just pushing the Titoist propaganda in orther to gain access to the Aegean.
Why do they call their Slavic language "macedonian" when there was and is just a Makedonian Greek DIALECT?
There NEVER was/is/will be a "Makedonian" nation, no matter how much Soros spends and no matter how much brainwashing is going in the western world, if the Skopjans have the right to spread their poison I have the right to provide the andidote...

Hellenes

[Red Peasant]

Someone needs a sedative, I think.

[English assassin]

Before we go into this in any more detail could we back up a touch and have a short explanation of why this is an important issue?

I don't have an opinion on macedonia and from a quick skim of the thread I don't think I want one.

[InsaneApache]

From what my Dad told me last year (he lives in Greece) the Greeks are getting upset that parts of the former Yugoslave republic are using the name Macedonia. The Greeks maintain that Macedonia is part of Greece, not Yugoslavia (or what's left of it).

Well at least that what I think that's what Hellenes is talking about.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Is it like the English calling themselves British as well now?

I find that pretty funny. Mainly because some people are utterly ignorant about where that name came from and who it was originally used for.

I think I see where Hellenes is coming from though (I think).

[hellenes]

From what my Dad told me last year (he lives in Greece) the Greeks are getting upset that parts of the former Yugoslave republic are using the name Macedonia. The Greeks maintain that Macedonia is part of Greece, not Yugoslavia (or what's left of it).

Well at least that what I think that's what Hellenes is talking about.

That sums up a decent part of the issue...
90% of the Makedonian territory is part of Greece the Skopjans just have 10% and 100% brainwashing from the former communist and current regimes...


Hellenes

[Watchman]

Right. They are brainwashed, you are lucid and rational... Sure. The level of *that* argumentation is roughly "I'm right and he's wrong." Not a very analytical standpoint, I'd say.

The only part of the whole issue I can perceive to be something more than two groups of "patriots" arguing over precedence to something as irrelevant as a name is the part about "oppressed Macedonian minorities that need to be liberated" - this being the Balkans, I can see why that one could make folks a little nervous. I also seem to recall talk in the news about an international peacekeeping op in Macedonia a year or two back, so apparently there's some real trouble going around.

'Course, it is also perfectly possible the Greeks really are oppressing "Macedonian" minorities... Excessive nationalism tends to do that, too.

Someone feel like going and digging up some reasonably objective data about the issue ?

[hellenes]

Right. They are brainwashed, you are lucid and rational... Sure. The level of *that* argumentation is roughly "I'm right and he's wrong." Not a very analytical standpoint, I'd say.

The only part of the whole issue I can perceive to be something more than two groups of "patriots" arguing over precedence to something as irrelevant as a name is the part about "oppressed Macedonian minorities that need to be liberated" - this being the Balkans, I can see why that one could make folks a little nervous. I also seem to recall talk in the news about an international peacekeeping op in Macedonia a year or two back, so apparently there's some real trouble going around.

'Course, it is also perfectly possible the Greeks really are oppressing "Macedonian" minorities... Excessive nationalism tends to do that, too.

Someone feel like going and digging up some reasonably objective data about the issue ?

Well I as a Korean will tell you that in Korea we have no problem here in Balkans, the Skopjans to the north are just looking for a Past because I think they dont like their real history and are just trying to find a better one, being a Korean I speak Greek, I listen Greek Music, eat Greek food...but hey I can take any name I want and claim any historical achievement I want, if I have a US recognition and plenty of cash to back my propaganda campaign...

Hellenes

[Papewaio]

So what with them taking the name of an area that used to take up part of where they live? Take it as a complement.

New Zealand is named after an area the Netherlands... yet they are about as far apart as possible from each other.

You cant bring the multinational colonial states in this equation, just because the English (mainly) colonists of the country called "New Zealand" invented an artificial nation of "New Zealanders" (same as the "Americans", "Canadians", "Australians") that doesnt mean that they have any distinct culture (to a great degree) and it means that they are just an amalgamation of different cultures and ethnicities,

Just an amalgamation... tones of racial supremacy there mate.

You may want to make a few quick notes on what the ancient Greeks achieved and how little has been done since by that area of land since and then compare the rise of civilisation at the hands of the multinationals.

[LeftEyeNine]

Out of curiosity, hellenes, don't you have any Greek relatives at all - is it only that you admire Greeks ? That's just a question, please don't take it offensive.

[Byzantine Prince]

The most important question is, does it matter? What good is it arguing with people( on the internet non the less), about things that are facts whether either side has been convinced of their argument. Does it change the truth? No. Can propaganda change the truth, no.

Can the truth be known? Yes, even in an abstract form.
Is Makedonia part of Greece(today)? Yes.
Was Makedonia greek in ancient times? Yes and no. Yes as in it fits the main culture group, no in that greek nationalism, just like any nationalism is a figment of the modern greek's perception. The ancient one was a little cleverer.

[Red Peasant]

The irony is that the ancient Greeks (not just the Athenians) hated and despised the Macedonians, no matter what language or people they were, or purported to be. Now they are kissing their historical arse as if long lost brothers, and claiming them as their own.

[hellenes]

So what with them taking the name of an area that used to take up part of where they live? Take it as a complement.

New Zealand is named after an area the Netherlands... yet they are about as far apart as possible from each other.



Just an amalgamation... tones of racial supremacy there mate.

You may want to make a few quick notes on what the ancient Greeks achieved and how little has been done since by that area of land since and then compare the rise of civilisation at the hands of the multinationals.

Thank you for reminding me the Politically Correct regime...I wont repeat the sin of stating the obvious...and BTW I didnt mean it in any racial way its just the reality or you deny that its an synthesis of many nations?

Red Peasant
Should Demosthenes who was a half Scythian be placed as the king of Athens and be treated as the expressor of whole Athenean people? What about Isocrates? There is NO evidence contrary to the evidence that the Ancient Makedonians were Hellenic. If Im wrong provide some quotes apart from Demosthenes and that passage from Arrian about the Makedonian dialect...
LeftEyeNine
That was a SARCASM pointing that as the Skopjan Bulgars can pick and plagiarise any name I can also change national names at will...
From my part as a Spanish I believe that the fact that Ive never been in Spain and that I dont speak Spanish or have a Spanish way of life/culture doesnt stop me from claiming that Im the only true Spanish...

Hellenes

Edit
I didnt mean to use the word "amalgamation" as it is used primarly by people that I dont like, what I meant was that there is a relatively short period of time that these nations were created thus they havent yet developed their distinguished cultural stamp, while in Balkans there are quite many distinguishing factors between nations because of the long history that predates them...

[InsaneApache]

To the rest of the posters here....

This is what they call a truism.

The Greeks are very nationalistic, as I'm sure members have noticed. They have their history and reasons for exclaiming that. They are a proud race and see themselves as the founders of the modern world. Right or wrong this is, to some extent, how they see the themselves.

Now where did I put my chipero?

[Kralizec]

On the RTR forums, the maker of the Megas Alexandros mod got flamed by a couple of Greeks because in one of his previews he said that Athenians loathed Philip and the Macedonians. This very thread is another piece of evidence that you can't openly debate or question Macedons origins without Greek nationalists laying the crack down on you and acuse you of being a slavic or bulgar conspirator

The Republic of Macedonia partly occupies the area that was ancient Macedonia. The history and to a lesser degree culture is firmly connected with that place, why can't they call it Macedonia? Belgium is named after a Celtic culture that lived there 1500+ years ago? Egypt is still named Egypt but is mostly inhabited by Arabs. Syria has very little to no connection to the ancient Assyrians. How is this different from Macedonia?
Of course, FYROM nationalists who claim lineage from ancient Makedon are shaming themselves. Just as Greek nationalists.

[InsaneApache]

That's the Balkens for you.

[Sardo]

I concur wholeheartedly.

Also, I would like you to show me any nation that is not, in some way or another, 'just an amalgamation of different cultures and ethnicities'. European people are a mix of Celtic, Roman, Germanic, Slavic and probably a few other outlandish elements besides. Greece itself has had several ethnic groups settling it in its earliest history, only to be conquered or settled afterwards by Romans, Slavs and Turks. You can't just go about calling the Americans, Australians, Canadians and Kiwis 'artificial' just because their ancestors were from different nations any more than you can call your own people an artificial construction, in my humble opinion.

Aside from that, it seems to me that any kind of nationalism in the Balkans is extra dangerous - and silly. The Serbs and Croatians speak the same language, yet the ones are supposed to be orthodox and the others catholic, and so they divide themselves and kill each other. People living in a part of Macedonia name themselves after their land, and you get the Greeks going mad because they're so possessive of their Philip and Alexander, nevermind the fact that those guys aren't around anymore and there's an entirely different situation, politically, demographically, religiously, anythingly. It all seems very pointless to me.

That said, I should look into this thread again by the 1st of next month - exam time for that Balkan History course I mentioned. This is very illustrative of the things we were told in the last few lessons.

[Byzantine Prince]

Why was I ignored? I actually made sense today.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I've learned to never ever discuss issues of nationhood with anybody southeast of Vienna.

From Hungary to Turkey, within seconds they'll throw a few dozen maps and links at you, all proving that the whole Balkan peninsula was once theirs, that it should all be really theirs now and that all the others are lying usurpers.
Followed by them claiming that they invented modern civilization as we know it yet don't recieve their due gratitude for it.

Then they'll bitch at you for not seeing things quite the way they do.

[Louis VI the Fat]

*Hugs BP so he doesn't feel ignored*

[LeftEyeNine]

I've learned to never ever discuss issues of nationhood with anybody southeast of Vienna.

From Hungary to Turkey, within seconds they'll throw a few dozen maps and links at you, all proving that the whole Balkan peninsula was once theirs, that it should all be really theirs now and that all the others are lying usurpers.
Followed by them claiming that they invented modern civilization as we know it yet don't recieve their due gratitude for it.

Then they'll bitch at you for not seeing things quite the way they do.

Nah, Turks have nothing to do with Balkans anymore, at least I don't .. Hey, we love Albanians and Bosnians particularly though

[Louis VI the Fat]

*Hugs LEN so he won't take it personally*

[LeftEyeNine]

*Hugs L4F back before DevDave arrives around*

P.S. Seriously, as a resident in Turkey as well, I did not come across with any claims by nor ultra-nationalists neither any other people about Balkans.

[Louis VI the Fat]

*Hugs L4F back before DevDave arrives around*

Yes, but you had better be going now.

My dirty little Davey is very jealous of other guys.