Medieval2 ~:cheers:

**King of the dutch** · 01-24-2006, 22:19

Quote:
Besides, few people know more about History than what they learn in High School. Thich is sadly very little. Nothing is done in basic education to remove that hollywoodesque feel to history. You will never learn in history class that the early Roman legions were divided by wealth in to Velites, Hastati, Princeps, Triarii and Equites. Most High School history teachers don't know that themsleves. Most people think that that Gladiator is 300% realistic.

An interesting point. I am (studying to become) a high school history teacher myself. But tell me, what use is it to a high school kid of lets say 'practical level'
(no not dumb they just hate reading) to know that the romans actually divided their armies like that? ('knowledge' provided by CA btw). In fact, what's important about knowing that alexanders troops were armed in that way? To continue why should there be such an emphasis on the ancient period in general. All parts of history are equally important. Given' the time i (we) have in school to teach numerous subjects i fail to see the significance of the info you just provided. The 'hollywoodesque nature' of history is (by myself) employed to enhance the subject. Which basicly means i exaggerate a little. (no i don't purposly distort history, on the contrary). Don't forget that if you're not on eof 'us' history lovers the subject is quite boring and all about dead people. We live in the now come on. If you apply this to CA then i don't find it surprising they employ a less specialized version of history. I agree it shouldn't be wrong though but for a game a little artistic freedom is (imho) not so bad.

grtz kotd

btw:
manga is wicked (and some is even historically accurate)

**Lord_Morningstar** · 01-24-2006, 23:40

I have concerns about MTW II, but they’re mostly that the game will simply come across as a pretty RTW mod. The only thing that’ll stop me from buying MTWII would be the game being too similar to RTW. The changes from MTW to RTW were very significant – the whole new campaign map system, unit movement, sea transport, cities and city levels, the massive step up in battlefield graphics, the Senate and Civil War system, ect. I don’t expect such a big step up from RTW, but I’d like a game with a different look and different feel, and some new features. My other concern is that it’ll be boring – I’d like to see more plot and story elements so that I’m not just taking cities for four hours. Both of those concerns are to do with gameplay first and foremost. It could be perfectly historical, but if its unoriginal or dull it won’t be a good game.

Also, some people are making it sound like there’s two alternatives – one is the accuracte depiction of 39 different types of Parthian cavalry and the other is Marvelous Magical Mighty Mystics of Mazda armed with +3 enchanted swords of slaying. CA will most likely give us something in the middle.

Just so we’re clear, I’m not defending the Egyptians or screaming women from vanilla. I’m certainly not defending the way that the Egyptians could overrun the Middle East every time, which was both unhistorical and dull (I lost count of the number of units of Nubian spearmen I destroyed in my Pontic campaign at about eighty). Also, while I felt that BI was superior to vanilla, the generically named units got on my nerves pretty quickly. My issue is with the people who claim that RTW was unplayable because of them, all gameplay considerations aside, and who are looking for any and every excuse to say the same thing about MTWII. My other issue is with the people who expect CA to make historical accuracy their number one criteria for every decision that they make, with fun gameplay an optional extra.

**Steppe Merc** · 01-25-2006, 03:21

Also, some people are making it sound like there’s two alternatives – one is the accuracte depiction of 39 different types of Parthian cavalry and the other is Marvelous Magical Mighty Mystics of Mazda armed with +3 enchanted swords of slaying. CA will most likely give us something in the middle.

Well there weren't really 39 types. I'd settle for a few logical variations of the two main types they had (in a published game, at least), without potraying them as Arabs.

**Seydlitz** · 01-25-2006, 01:02

An interesting point. I am (studying to become) a high school history teacher myself. But tell me, what use is it to a high school kid of lets say 'practical level'
(no not dumb they just hate reading) to know that the romans actually divided their armies like that? ('knowledge' provided by CA btw). In fact, what's important about knowing that alexanders troops were armed in that way? To continue why should there be such an emphasis on the ancient period in general. All parts of history are equally important. Given' the time i (we) have in school to teach numerous subjects i fail to see the significance of the info you just provided. The 'hollywoodesque nature' of history is (by myself) employed to enhance the subject. Which basicly means i exaggerate a little. (no i don't purposly distort history, on the contrary). Don't forget that if you're not on eof 'us' history lovers the subject is quite boring and all about dead people. We live in the now come on. If you apply this to CA then i don't find it surprising they employ a less specialized version of history. I agree it shouldn't be wrong though but for a game a little artistic freedom is (imho) not so bad.

grtz kotd

btw:
manga is wicked (and some is even historically accurate)

Well, what you just said is what I was trying to say! Most people don't like history, especially kids. I just came out of High School (In The Netherlands actually

) and half of my friends stopped taking history as soon as they could. One of my friends thinks it's ridiculous that I actually read history books because ,like you said, "It's all about dead people anyways. So who cares?". And yeah, he's not a dumb kid at all. He, like most other people, just really dosn't care about history.

So that means not only that most people wouldn't even notice CA's mistakes, but also what CA was showing is just what everyone else thinks the period looks like. It's what's 'true' for about 90% of it's customers, as far as they know anyways. And had they attempted to bring it to 'our' standards of historical knowledge, they would have lost many customers since the customers just wouldn't understand what CA was giving them. Mainly because they don't really care.

And I meant no insult to History teachers either. They are usually the more open-minded teachers, and my High School history teacher is still my favorite teacher ever.

Cheers,
- Seyd

(And I'm sure there is cool manga. It's just that it gets boring when that's all people read, draw or talk about. They have no interest in anything that dosn't come from Japan, which I find a bit ridiculous.)

**Shigawire** · 01-25-2006, 05:57

Originally Posted by Seydlitz

(And I'm sure there is cool manga. It's just that it gets boring when that's all people read, draw or talk about. They have no interest in anything that dosn't come from Japan, which I find a bit ridiculous.)

A bit OT here.. but...
My take on "manga" is that it's an unoriginal "format" artform. Manga represents a specific style of proportions and animation. There are many variations in the manga "genre", but it is typified by its large eyes and small mouths, as well as exaggerated items such as weapons. Also typified by incredibly gaudy choreography of character-animations, combined with undetailed and bland parallax background animations.

What I find ridiculous, as a 3d artist, is all the people who say "I want to draw a manga character" or tutorials teaching you "How to model a manga character". WHY? It's a pigeon-holing process. You pigeon-hole your artistic idea through an A4 standard format like "anime".

I usually compare this to pressing a piece of meat through a grinder, forcing the meat into many tiny uniform strips, forever ruining the original consistency of the meat. (thus forever corrupting the original artform you had in your head)
It's almost like saying "How do I draw a Picasso character?"

It's in human (and primate) nature to imitate what others do. And there are a lot of imitators out there, and few innovators. But I prefer artforms from the innovators, and there is actually enough of that around that I don't need the massproduced manga to entertain myself.

**Three63** · 01-25-2006, 06:42

MTW 2 will be fine. There are a few clues already that historical accuracy will be better or just as good as MTW 1 (Which was fine in general). If you read the IGN interview they seem to be more knowledge of medieval weapons, the photos and soldiers look more gritty non-vanilla, and there are 100+ more units from MTW 1, possibly meaning they have done a lot more research.

I have trust that there wise enough to learn from there mistakes, and seeing that this is a sequel that has been under development/in-direct development for a very long time, they will focus more on details. IMO RTW seems to have been rushed (Creating 3d battles, maps, and full cities takes a lot of effort to develop and create in two years), the details (Like historical accuracy) had to take a backseat.

You people should smile

and not be doubtful, MTW 2 will be a great game.

**the_handsome_viking** · 01-25-2006, 07:58

Originally Posted by Shigawire

A bit OT here.. but...
My take on "manga" is that it's an unoriginal "format" artform. Manga represents a specific style of proportions and animation. There are many variations in the manga "genre", but it is typified by its large eyes and small mouths, as well as exaggerated items such as weapons. Also typified by incredibly gaudy choreography of character-animations, combined with undetailed and bland parallax background animations.

What I find ridiculous, as a 3d artist, is all the people who say "I want to draw a manga character" or tutorials teaching you "How to model a manga character". WHY? It's a pigeon-holing process. You pigeon-hole your artistic idea through an A4 standard format like "anime".

I usually compare this to pressing a piece of meat through a grinder, forcing the meat into many tiny uniform strips, forever ruining the original consistency of the meat. (thus forever corrupting the original artform you had in your head)
It's almost like saying "How do I draw a Picasso character?"

It's in human (and primate) nature to imitate what others do. And there are a lot of imitators out there, and few innovators. But I prefer artforms from the innovators, and there is actually enough of that around that I don't need the massproduced manga to entertain myself.

Essentially manga is just a cartoon language that has grown to huge levels of popularity, I'd imagine because it deals with more mature subjects (as in its not uncommon to see breasts, violence and gore).

By cartoon language I mean a drawing system that shows a clear distinctive style, for example Genndy Tartakovsky has a pretty distinct style in his Star Wars: Clone Wars cartoons, or Samurai Jack cartoons or the comic artist Cam Kennedy, who has his own distinct style, as seen is dark empire or judge dredd.

Whats funny is the way that Western comics and cartoons seem to be more diverse in terms of their cartoon languages, whereas almost all Japanese comic books and cartoons I've seen appear to be drawn in the exact same cartoon langauge.

Oh well, It will die a death sooner or later.

http://www.seizurerobots.com/

**Aymar de Bois Mauri** · 01-26-2006, 03:05

Originally Posted by the_handsome_viking

Essentially manga is just a cartoon language that has grown to huge levels of popularity, I'd imagine because it deals with more mature subjects (as in its not uncommon to see breasts, violence and gore).

By cartoon language I mean a drawing system that shows a clear distinctive style, for example Genndy Tartakovsky has a pretty distinct style in his Star Wars: Clone Wars cartoons, or Samurai Jack cartoons or the comic artist Cam Kennedy, who has his own distinct style, as seen is dark empire or judge dredd.

Whats funny is the way that Western comics and cartoons seem to be more diverse in terms of their cartoon languages, whereas almost all Japanese comic books and cartoons I've seen appear to be drawn in the exact same cartoon langauge.

Oh well, It will die a death sooner or later.

http://www.seizurerobots.com/

I disagree with the preconcieved notion that "manga" is all the same. IIRC, "manga" means comic in japanese. And judging from the miriad of varied titles produced every month in Japan it is very restrictive to think that way. What I know for sure is that the "manga" titles sold abroad are mostly from the same type and drawn similary, therefore our preconcieved notion of what "manga" looks or reads like.

And this is why? Because in the western countries (specially in the states), comics, as well as animations, are and have always been targeted to kids or juveniles. This puzzles me when watching the work of European authors like Möebius, Jean Giraud, Schuiten and Peters, Enki Bilal, Tardi, etc... that have nothing to envy to good literature books. It is preciselly this kid-type targeting that makes the japanese "manga" exported abroad to be chosen specifically for that target audience. And therefore the current notions of what "manga" is portraied in this thread.

For something different regarding japanese comics book that is significant in showing the wide ranges and different art styles in "manga", as well as to adding a touch of historical setting that many people here should enjoy, read Lone Wolf and Cub (known in Japan as Kozure Ōkami 子連れ狼) the masterpiece created by the writer Kazuo Koike and the artist Goseki Kojima.

EDIT: I hadn't read your post, King of the dutch. I should have said "something like comic" instead. But the idea remains...

**the_handsome_viking** · 01-26-2006, 14:44