Berserkers (Zerkers)!!

[x-dANGEr]

I just want to know what makes berserkers soooo deadly.. I mean ok they have great attack, but they should get dominated with a little charge from the lightest infantry for their low armor. But no, they don't. Does anyone know what does each factor effects in a 1 on 1 battle like zerkers VS Samnite Gladiators (R: TW).

Berserkers (Germania):

type             barb berserker german
dictionary       barb_berserker_german      ; Berserkers
category         infantry
class            light
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          barb_berserker, 12, 0, 1.5
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, frighten_foot, very_hardy, warcry
formation        1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 2, horde
stat_health      2, 0
stat_pri         19, 7, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, axe, 25 ,0.87
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  2, 5, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      2, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental      16, berserker, untrained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 930, 120, 100, 140, 930
ownership        germans

(You can see their armor is too bad (2) but still it takes many volleys to take a whole zerker unit)

Samnite Gladiators:

type             roman samnite gladiator
dictionary       roman_samnite_gladiator      ; Samnite Gladiators
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          roman_samnite_gladiator, 20, 0, 1.3
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy
formation        1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 2, horde
stat_health      2, 0
stat_pri         14, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,1
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  7, 7, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        3
stat_ground      2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental      14, impetuous, untrained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 720, 260, 80, 110, 720
ownership        romans_julii, romans_senate, slave

In testing it in battle, the zerker unit will lose only 3-4 men.
Suming the numbers of each unit, we get this:

Zerkers |Samnite Gladiators

Base Attack + Charge bonus + armor |Base Attack + Charge Bonus + Armor
19 + 7 + 7 |14 + 3 + 14
33 >31

Not a huge Difference I'd say. Though, I tried upgrading the Glads +2 weapon and I got the same result.. So, what do you think makes zerkers too strong? They can punish a Spartan Hoplite unit face to face in no time. (At least a group of them would dominate a group of Spartans)

[professorspatula]

The beserkers weren't that strong before the 1.3 patch. That patch changed the way the beserkers operate, making their attack completely disrupt the enemy formation and send the troops flying before they can strike back - just like the beserkers in BI. Previously they were just another infantry unit with high health and attack stats.

[Watchman]

Out of curiosity, do the Bers get some sort of attack bonus when they've gone berserk ? Something along the lines of the Warcry ability ?

[Mooks]

Beserkers are so unrealistic...Nobody can make a horse fligh 2 meteres in the air with a 10 pound+ sword.

[Watchman]

Nobody's going to get too much done with a 10+ pound sword either.

[x-dANGEr]

I just think Zerkers ruined the gameplay in a way or another. I mean ok, give them huge attack, but not ability to throw first 20 people in the air once they reach them. That's just too much. And does anyone around here know what removes a berserker unit from the berserk mode?

[Watchman]

Death or the end of the battle, AFAIK. Persistent buggers. Kinda like the wardogs really.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Key issue is Morale. At 16, the 'zerkers are virtually impossible to break. At 0.87 speed, their attacks come faster and harder that the Samnite.

While the Samnite's hits easily exceed the armor factor of the 'zerker, the attack value of the 'zerker also exceeds that of the Samnite. Striking 6 times for the Samnite's 5, coupled with higher morale base, the advantage has to go to the 'zerker.

Berzerkers are, of course, one of the reasons for Archer Auxilia. An M1-Garand would be an even better choice, but even CA isn't that anachronistic.

[professorspatula]

At 0.87 speed, their attacks come faster and harder that the Samnite.

While the Samnite's hits easily exceed the armor factor of the 'zerker, the attack value of the 'zerker also exceeds that of the Samnite. Striking 6 times for the Samnite's 5, coupled with higher morale base, the advantage has to go to the 'zerker.

Actually that's not quite right. The 0.87 is the lethality of the attack - not the speed. The speed value is the 25 part - the bit before the 0.87, although that's really just the delay between the attack animations. It's the actual attack animations for each unit that determine the speed of the attack. Anyway, the lower the lethality, the less effective the weapon is at scoring a 'hit'. So if the Samnite had the same attack value as the berserker, it's higher lethality would mean it had a better killing rate. However, the berserker's special spinning attack means the samnite would still have no hope! It's possible the berserk mode also increases the berserker unit's lethality further, which is what I think happens with other units in warcry mode.

[x-dANGEr]

Does the same apply to archers? And do arhcers hit targets easier when they are close to them or it doesn't matter?

[Watchman]

Does the same apply to archers?

...okay, you lost me there. The same what ?

AFAIK range has no effect on missile accuracy or effectiveness in RTW, possibly barring some siege weapons (I don't have a clue what determines where exactly the rocks land myself).

[x-dANGEr]

The same hit or not value.

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

Yeah, as PS says its related to the attack animation speed. This is directly related to what skeleton a model (IE unit) uses.

[EDIT:]As mentioned, its also related to the number of hitpoints a unit has, as well as the units' defence skill. From those vanilla files, you can see that both the Berserkers and Samnites have 7 defence skill, so it will take some time before the hitpoints are eroded, especially if the unit has experience (which further increases both attack and defence skill).

[x-dANGEr]

Then where does the armor go? It only depends on defence skill? And is defence skill like Agility?

[Seasoned Alcoholic]

Its a combination of things - if you go back through the above posts, you'll see exactly which factors are used.

Yea, you could say defence skill is related to agility. If you increase a units defence skill, you should see them perform blocks, parrys, dodges, counters and so on. It makes it all the more realistic and more enjoyable to watch than hack, slash and instant rout