So who’s playing what?

[Togakure]

One who thinks of CA as just a ranged unit, is truly mislead. The arrows are just a nice bonus for one of the best and versatile units in the game. Their true value lies in luring enemy cav out, peppering enemy inf and serving as decisive flankers.

Also yes Drisos, I do use 3 h0/1 Cav Arch in my armies.

Very well put, Master Duck. I very often use more CA than I should (as I'm not as good with them as players like you, Kans, and Sasaki, et. al.) My old "signature" army used 4 H0 CA (+ 4 Msk, 4 YS, 4 NC, or 2 NC 2 HC; the "4444").

I would say that more than two CA are not the best choice for beginning and early intermediate players. They need to be managed carefully, and if they route through your army at the wrong time, they can singlehandly cause you to lose the battle (good players know this and will try and use your CA against you if you're careless ...). They are GREAT for creating flank pressure, playing the "carrot" on a stick, running down routers, and boosting morale (proximity and numbers) behind an infantry line. But they MUST be managed well.

CA with higher Honor than zero or one would be fun, but the cost just doesn't justify their performance when you consider what else you can buy in MP. I use h0 prett much exclusively now, unless I just happen to have 92 koku left on an improvised army.

[Puzz3D]

H0 CA is a clever choice because they get battlefield upgrades from their shooting kills which makes them more effective in melee. This works out well since they are used as shooters early on, and used in melee later. H0 to H1 is a very easy battlefield upgrade to get. H1 to H2 is harder to get, etc. Each battlefield upgrade increases the unit's melee capability by 40% and boosts its morale. Battlefield upgrades were removed from multiplayer in MTW/VI.

[AggonyDuck]

Another option Tomi could be the 1.03 Stats, which are quite enjoyable to play with.

[Just A Girl]

We playing STW these days Or some mod for MTW VI?
I dont play the mod cos its not STW.

Please dont turn STW in to a replica of the MTW VI mod.
You can always play the Mod If Its The Mod That you wish to play.

[Puzz3D]

We playing STW these days Or some mod for MTW VI?
I dont play the mod cos its not STW.

It's v1.02 that's not STW. It's not even close to it. The v1.02 is nothing more than a community mod whose development was cut-off abruptly by a CA imposed deadline. All kinds of stats were changed that never should have been touched, and it wasn't properly playtested because the stat changes continued up to the last day of the deadline. The v1.02 is broken, and everyone who helped develop the stat concurs. The mandate of the player community was to reduce the effectiveness of guns, and the v1.02 beta team failed to do that. About two-thirds of the STW multiplayer community stopped playing because of v1.02.

[Just A Girl]

I still like STW,
I think its a bit Imature to leave a game becous you didnt like some changes
The game still works even with powerfull muskets.

You can rout muskets with cav.
And from what i gather That was the only real thing they messed up. (Increase musket power)
Seems to me some dont like The invetion of muskets.
Like many did not at the time.
Muskets killed the samurais as they OWNED.
IMO The muskets in game reflect that Correctly.

60 cav would not be able to run straight at 60 musketeers,
Without being totaly decimated.
And IMO,
a voley of 30 shots should kill more than a few Cav who are runing straight in to them,
Being shot at WOULD reduce morrale.
And this is also reflected in the game.

Im sorry its not easier.

[Tomisama]

It's v1.02 that's not STW.

So the revisions should have stopped at v1.01b?

That patch is still available. Of course it probably means a reinstall, but no big deal.

Yuuki-san, do you think that we might generate more veteran interest in a Shogun revival, if we went back to the 1b revision?

[AggonyDuck]

I'd believe that 1.03 might be a better choice over 1.01b...

[Tomisama]

I’m sorry Ducky,

You have mentioned it several times now, and I keep meaning to ask you.

(It seems the more I have to do, the less time is available. Even the weather won't cooperate!)

What is v1.03? I mean, what does it fix? And where do you get it?

[Kansuke]

Howl Tomi,

"What is v1.03? I mean, what does it fix? And where do you get it?"

1.03 is a mod made by Yuuki et al, it mainly reduces musk fire rate (Yuuki knows the most on this topic) and is best played ata 7000koku, there is a stat swapper also, so it make switching between 1.02 and 1.03 easy (few seconds if that).

There used to be links in the forum, cant see them now, but u can download here at the .Org or on Mizu server, they are very small files.

[AggonyDuck]

I’m sorry Ducky,

You have mentioned it several times now, and I keep meaning to ask you.

(It seems the more I have to do, the less time is available. Even the weather won't cooperate!)

What is v1.03? I mean, what does it fix? And where do you get it?

Well it was a nice alternative stat set made by Yuuki&co. There was a tourney with it about 1½ year ago and it was good fun. It has the fun thing that most units are quite nicely balanced and I remember it being quite cool to play. I personally found it better than 1.02.

You can download either of those statswappers over there to get the mod: http://www.mizus.com/Files/k0rgs8gVt/stats.shtml

[Puzz3D]

Seems to me some dont like The invetion of muskets.

Did you see muskets removed from STWmod for MTW/VI? In fact, the Japanese teppo in STWmod get 1.5 times the kills/volley that muskets got in original STW.

Muskets were never used in Japan at this time. They were Arquebus that were used which were very inaccurate and not very effective at 80 meters, and their reload time was 10 times longer than it is in the game. If you want to play with realistic guns, then increase the reload time to 2.5 minutes.

60 cav would not be able to run straight at 60 musketeers without being totaly decimated.

Wrong. These guns were very inaccurate, and, even if many horses were killed, the samurai on foot would be all over the gunners before they could reload.

Besides, you could reduce the kills/volley in v1.02 by a factor of 2 and 60 muskets firing at close range would still rout cav. The v1.02 is allowing that to happen with only 20 of the 60 firing which cuts the effective reload time by 1/3 where reload times without 3 rank firing are already extremely short.

If the muskets in v1.02 were right, you wouldn't be putting a 4 max limit on them, and you wouldn't be playing at 10k koku.

[Just A Girl]

It is a game you know.
Cant be perfect. but I still like it.
Its still playable.

And muskets arent as bad as you say IMO.

[Just A Girl]

How do the crosbow men in MI compare to the muskets then??

Could we replace the muskets with them??
Should be easy enough to do...
Statwize and in battle image wize..
dont really know about morrale and costs and how they balance out though..

So im asking.

[Puzz3D]

The xbows are only available in the mongol period. They are considerably less effective than guns, and don't have 3 rank rotating fire.

I suggested to keep the arquebus so that you will still have guns in the game. At 7k, they are going to be more effective in routing units than at 10k, but they don't fire at all in rain and have shorter range. Their range is 80 meters. At 7k, muskets are also going to be more effective at routing units, but they are already very good doing that at 10k.

[Just A Girl]

but that would mean imposing weather restrictions,
And weather is most definatly an integral part of the game...

[Puzz3D]

Weather is even more important when guns don't shoot at all in rain. This means you have to limit how many guns you take in case it rains. This is a benefit the attacker gets, which helps equalize against the defender's advantage of terrain, because he knows how many guns he has and he decides the weather conditions under which the attack will be made. However, the weather is chosen after the armies have been chosen, so, if the attacker has taken guns and all the weather choices are rain, he doesn't get any advantage.

[Just A Girl]

But that just means no one will bring any guns to the battle feild.

[Puzz3D]

But that just means no one will bring any guns to the battle feild.

Many players brought guns to the battlefield in original STW, and they were 1/3 the effectiveness of guns in v1.02 and they didn't shoot in the rain. Usually you didn't see more than 4 muskets in an army, but there was an 8 musket 8 warrior monk army that was used with success.

It's unfortunate that Creative Assembly never told us how to make replays in original STW days eventhough it was possible with the same commandline argument that works in STW/MI.

[Just A Girl]

i used to play stw origional.
only campaign though, and cant admit that i used alot of muskets.
but I thought the muskets would fire in light rain but not heavy rain.
where as arq's just did not fire in the rain at all.
But i dont remember all that well realy.

Wouldnt just using h0 muskets 4 max rule at 7-10k koku
help?
the money you get back from the 2 honour taken from the muskets although not that spectacular an amount. could help add bonuses to other units. which would help their morrale. which in turn would help rebalance the game,

Prehaps the h0 muskets 4max rule would work at certain koku levels.

what do you imagine would happen?
or at what koku level this would be best implimented. if at all?

[AggonyDuck]

How about to actually save this tourney we stop arguing over stupid rules/guns and just concentrate on actually playing on rules that people actually prefer to play on?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

How about to actually save this tourney we stop arguing over stupid rules/guns and just concentrate on actually playing on rules that people actually prefer to play on?

Yes.

Shambles I'd appreciate it if you didn't throw around words like "immature".

Also, Yuuki knows this stuff far better than you. Let's get back on the topic of preferred rules for playing.

[Kansuke]

Hi,

4 max, no ashi @ 7000 Koku, v1.02.

Attack and defend on a selected map, tie-break, if required, on Ironing Board.

Lets keep it simple.

[HiPlnzDrifta]

i concur with Kans on 4 max , koku and the maps.... however i do believe personally that most units can be abused in some way and therefore i feel ashigaru should not be excluded...(not that i use them often, once in a blue moon maybe)

however for the sake of simplicity we all have to bite the bullet sooner or later and i'm prepared to go with whatever the tourny organisers decide upon...

[Shaka_Khan]

How about an 8-max rule with 10,000 koku? I can stop an 8 unit yari or ashigaru rush. I find it fun to chase them when they rout.

[Shaka_Khan]

The earliest WE patch made the game move faster. The patch made the unseen part of the battle map not use up the memory. Or that's how I remembered it.
Unfortunately, new patches created other problems in army balances, and made people leave the community. I remember taking a while to adjust to new strategies whenever a new patch appeared.

[Puzz3D]

How about an 8-max rule with 10,000 koku? I can stop an 8 unit yari or ashigaru rush. I find it fun to chase them when they rout.

You can't go with 8 max and 10k because 8 musk + 8 YA are practically impossible to beat. The player doesn't rush. He just kills your whole army with his guns set behind the spears. A single 60 man musket can kill 180 men or more in v1.02.

Even with a 4 unit max and no ashi, if you win the shootout with 120 muskets left (equivalent of two 60 man units), you've won the battle. You can achieve this with 4 musk vs 4 musk by 30 seconds of unreturned fire (about 4 volleys) into the enemy's muskets. That will kill about 10 men or so in each enemy musket unit. The enemy muskets will go down quickly once they fall behind by that much in firepower because the difference in firepower will keep increasing as the shootout progresses. The enemy will then be forced to rush into muskets that were increased in power expressly to prevent rushes.

It was unnecessary to increase musket power just to stop rushes because fatigue works against a rusher anyway, so you can beat a rush just by maneuvering and coordinating your units better than the rusher. I did it many times in STW v1.12 which had weak guns. I still preferred to attack in STW v1.12 despite the fatigue disadvantage because, although not the best, I was fairly good at coordinating 16 units.