So who’s playing what?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You guys are really stingy on the ranged units...you'll get shot down big time against someone with 6 or 7 ranged. With 4 musks hon0 you may as well rush.

[Trajanus]

I usually sneak 1 or 2 Nags in just to confuse and surprise my opponent. Has worked well so far.

[Drisos]

Well Sasaki I used to take 6 ranged most of the time... sometimes even 8. (and I remember once I had 12.. was on a bridge defense )

but at the moment I have 0 ranged, 0 inf and 0 cav...

[Just A Girl]

You guys are really stingy on the ranged units...you'll get shot down big time against someone with 6 or 7 ranged. With 4 musks hon0 you may as well rush.

I sometimes replace the 2 Yari cav with 2 cav archers.
H0 W0 A0
then i have even more money to upgrade my infantry than when i only have 4 ranged units.

but i think heavy ranged or heavy cav armys are a bit unballanced.
so i tend to try and have a infantry based army. Like i imagine it would have been.

[AggonyDuck]

Bah! 8 Cav is the way to go!

[Just A Girl]

8 cav only works as you can only have 4 anti cav units. "using the 4 max unit rule"
Hopefully given time it will be customary to alow the use of 8 yari sams to make up for the loss of the yari ashigaru,

Heavy cav armys could then bre bought back in to balance

[Kansuke]

Yes Duck would use 4 max, possibly 4 nag cav and 4 cav archer.

Kans.

[AggonyDuck]

Actually more propable would be 4 Nag Cav (h4), 1 Yari Cav (h5) and 3 (h0) Cav Arch. :)

Anyways Shambles, cav heavy armies are in no way out of balance. Simply those 4 Yari Sams are able to easily defeat atleast double their number of cavalry. Which leaves me to hope I can rout them with a musket fire + cav charge in the rear. Anyways usually the best hope with an army like that is to beat the cav decisively, while trying to avoid contact with enemy YS, until I've got almost total cavalry superiority.

[Just A Girl]

exactly...
So if the opponent had 8 pole arm units.
4 muskets hon 0
2 nag cav. 2 yari cav
your cavalry would be in trouble if they were the ones who were on the attack.

but as it is,
we have 4 anti cav units,
and a bunch of other Some what mediocre sword units.
Which does not hold well vs heavy cav army.

4 pole arm units can only restrain 4 cav units.
Where as the other 4 cav units can circle. and attack from the rear. Thus decimating the 4 anti cav units and still having 4 cav units left.

[AggonyDuck]

Drisos, my real problem was with this statement:

8 cav only works as you can only have 4 anti cav units. "using the 4 max unit rule"
Hopefully given time it will be customary to alow the use of 8 yari sams to make up for the loss of the yari ashigaru,

Heavy cav armys could then bre bought back in to balance

In this statement, Shambles is saying that cav heavy armies are overpowered due to the 4 max rule. As a player who has always relied on my cavalry to deliver my victories, I must admit that I find it almost insulting.
But enough of that.

My point is not that I would be able to defeat him with cav when he has 8 YS, but that an army with 4 YS is actually well able to defeat a cav heavy army and that he is actually losing flexibility with 8 YS.

[Kansuke]

Hi Guys,

I tend to agree with Ducky on this debate, based on my own actual MP battle experience.

No need for a test, in reality it might be different, but in MP no chance, sorry Shambles.


Kans.

[Drisos]

In this statement, Shambles is saying that cav heavy armies are overpowered due to the 4 max rule. As a player who has always relied on my cavalry to deliver my victories, I must admit that I find it almost insulting.
But enough of that.

I know - it sounds a bit like you're exploited a little mistake in the rules.

Personally I think if I'd be the same skill as my opponent and he had 8 cavs I should be able to win. using 4 YS, 4 musk, 4 yc, and probably something like 2 nd and 2 nc.

[Kansuke]

Err, think your missing something here, 8 cav it might be, but 3 are CA, the point is the missiles will decimate a slow army quite quickly. If it were 8 combat cav, 4 inf and 4 musks, the 8 YS army would win.


Guys, I had 12 YS and 4 musks rushes hurled at me, CA work very well against it.

[Just A Girl]

The diference in price of YS hon and ND hon. Are about 1/3rd
Being that the ND costs aproximatly 1/3rd more than the YS per bonus.
Weapon and armour Bonuses are aproximatly 60 koku more for the ND per additon,
So there not really that diferently priced....
h5 ND cost just under 50 koku More than h6 YS.

But it does seem to imply YS are given a slight unfair advantage.
(posibly due to Honour giving 2 combat points per bonus instead of 1)
And as a result I dont believe allowing 8 YS would be a great idea.

Prehaps 6 would be better?
i see puzz3d mentions the use of 6YS. in an earlier post, which counters heavy cavalry charges.

All cav rush armies didn't work either against more balanced armies which had at least 6 YS infantry.

do people still dissagree that we should compensate for the loss of 4 Possible pole arm units
Without penalizing Cav units?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The diference in price of YS hon and ND hon. Are about 1/3rd
Being that the ND costs aproximatly 1/3rd more than the YS per bonus.
Weapon and armour Bonuses are aproximatly 60 koku more for the ND per additon,
So there not really that diferently priced....
h5 ND cost just under 50 koku More than h6 YS.

The point is that since ys cost less, have more armor, get a huge bonus vs cavaly, and will defeat the nd h2h, there is no reason to bring the nd except for the 4 max rule. If we had played with 6 ys allowed, everyone would have brought 6 ys. I'd sooner go without muskets than without yari sam. Cav rush armies are just not that effective in 1.02. If you bring some ca and along with the h2h cav and shoot around, you have a good chance, but that's really a whole different game.

[Puzz3D]

i see puzz3d mentions the use of 6YS. in an earlier post, which counters heavy cavalry charges.

That was in multiplayer battles tests done at 7k koku with muskets of power 3.

BTW, guns are not supposed to stop a frontal charge by HC or NC and possibly not even YC. The idea is supposed to be that guns have to be protected by anti-cav units. Also, swords should be beating ant-cav infantry of lower cost. Using too many upgrades breaks the game because cheaper units get the same quality upgrade as more expensive units for less cost. The system can probably tolerate a double honor upgrade, but that's about it.

Upgrades also boost morale which is a problem because the morale system is not scaleable. The battle system only works properly over a very limited range of morale. YS have lower morale for a reason, and when a lot of honor upgrades are used that morale deficiency is removed. A unit such as ND has high morale, and as such doesn't benefit much from boosting morale whereas the YS is benefitting greatly. All the low morale units, YA, SA, YS, CA and guns are affected a lot by morale boosting upgrades.

The reason players moved from 7k to 10k was to get the morale up so that guns wouldn't rout a unit right away. I think the guns are at the root of the problem with v1.02, although, the cost of weapon and armor upgrades are also not calculated correctly and the infantry moves too slow relative to the fighting speed.

[Just A Girl]

Well why dosent every 1 use muskets h0?
They will run away..
But not if you defend them right (probably even if you do)
Would that help much?

[Tomisama]

Ok, I did a little research this morning.

The Sengoku Period started with the 10 year Onin War in the mid 1400s. Firearms were not brought to Japan until the mid 1500s. So if we were to claim an early era Shogun Competition, we could rightfully exclude guns.

I would also like to exclude Kensai and Battlefield Ninja, as they are respectfully legend and myth. Also part of my research.

The Naginata seems to have been an ancient weapon even by the 1400s. But I am tempted to think of it’s primary use by that time, as an anti cavalry, not a cavalry weapon. I could be wrong but think that Naginata Cavalry should be excluded also (and I do use these myself).

It would be good to have a historian look into the above for verification, but I think it is reasonably sound. Basically removing from the Warlord Expansion, all unit types not in the original STW, and banning Arquebusiers and Musketeers.

To me, with the above gun restriction, playing at 5000 koku becomes very interesting

Thoughts?

[Puzz3D]

It would be good to have a historian look into the above for verification, but I think it is reasonably sound. Basically removing from the Warlord Expansion, all unit types not in the original STW, and banning Arquebusiers and Musketeers.

To me, with the above gun restriction, playing at 5000 koku becomes very interesting

Thoughts?

I think you can leave the Arquebusiers in the game. They have the accuracy of the muskets in original STW, don't fire in rain, have higher power, but are much slower firing and shorter range. They are cheaper than the original muskets, but they might work ok in the gameplay. You could run some test battles to make sure.

My own feeling on battlefield ninja and kensai is that they don't fit well into the battle engine. They benefit too much from battlefield upgrades, and aren't even balanced well, despite great effort to do so, in STWmod for MTW/VI which doesn't have battlefield upgrades.

The naginata cav does serve a gameplay purpose as assault cav if you wan't that kind of unit in the game. However, I don't think it's necessary to have it in the game especially if muskets are eliminated.