So who’s playing what?

[Drisos]

Err, think your missing something here, 8 cav it might be, but 3 are CA, the point is the missiles will decimate a slow army quite quickly. If it were 8 combat cav, 4 inf and 4 musks, the 8 YS army would win.

Guys, I had 12 YS and 4 musks rushes hurled at me, CA work very well against it.

Hi kans,

At least from my experience (1.02 stats) I never really have a lot of problems with CA. perhaps it's because of their attack stat, or yari's defend stat but they don't tend to shoot many... also I doubt Duck uses 3 of them(mostly). though we haven't played that often. (yet)

and ehhh, I'm not suggesting anything more then 4 ys.. I mentioned 4 ys and 4 yc. yari cav is not that good in 1.02 but they are not 'slow' 12 YS would be getting a bit 'over-speared' sounds like a Heavysword army lol

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Dris, 2-3 ca used to be standard when I was playing. I Brought 4 quite often. Sometimes 7. Maybe you just havn't played anyone who knows how to use them?

[Drisos]

I have played some very good players, but still I don't think the ca are a big problem... maybe it's just me, but they don't seem to be causing a lot of damage..

[AggonyDuck]

One who thinks of CA as just a ranged unit, is truly mislead. The arrows are just a nice bonus for one of the best and versatile units in the game. Their true value lies in luring enemy cav out, peppering enemy inf and serving as decisive flankers.

Also yes Drisos, I do use 3 h0/1 Cav Arch in my armies.

[AggonyDuck]

Also just want to give you the advice; practice on your use of Cav Archers.
Once mastered, they are rewarding units to use, especially in sheer cost effectiveness.

[Just A Girl]

I dont see Why you would all have such a problem will Alloing 8 YS to be used by a player if they wish to have them,
seeing as they will mean that there army will now have no mobilaty.

If its not going to be a benafit to anti cav army's
why are you so oposed to the idea?

allowing soem 1 to use 8 ys wouldnt mean you would use 8.
But it would allow you to hav 4, 5 ,6,7 or 8 if you so desierd,
Replacing the Yari ashigarus that have been removed.

This i say would be Fair.
And i dont understand why people are oposed to the idea.
If it means your army sux,
Dont use so many YS.
But i still believe the choice should be available.

[AggonyDuck]

Well why not do away with the whole 4 max thingy alltogether then? (not musks though)

[Just A Girl]

Ive only ever realy played max 4 rules. and i think they work prety well.
Means you dont get people coming in with
7 cav 5 archers and 4 muskets.
or 12 cav 4 muskets.
or even 10 cav 2 yaris 4 muskets.

However my understanding is that The rule initaly was, 4 max muskets,
and no other units were punished.
Then the 4 max of any type rule roled over from that.
but then again I also understand at the same time ashi's were allowed.

So id tend to steer away from the alowance of any amount of all units apart from muskets.
12 kenzai and 4 muskets is enough to scare even the most hardend playe id imagine.

My problem is that if the ashi's wernt so unballanced,
You could get 8 pole arm units. whilst still using the 4 max rule.
But becous they are unballanced you loose the posibilaty of an extra 4 pole arm units.
but cav get no penalty to reflect this dissalowance.

I supose a nother option would be 4 max units apart from cav they get 2 max per type.
But i really would not like to see that implimented.
and i dont think id like to be rushed by 16 WM's either.

[Tomisama]

When Medieval first came out, I was very unhappy with the game, and tried going back to Shogun. I found a set of new players playing with 8 Yari 9s and 8 guns, and winning without skills, against old school (4 max) vets.

The general consciences conclusion was that the game had gone to the dogs, and that there was nothing left to do but trudge on with MTW.

The four maximum of “any” unit type, was a standard set by the STW community very early on. The purpose was to preserve the “quality” of the game, and build a community based on multiple skills (cavalry, infantry, range, and teamwork).

In those days, a violation of the commonly understood basic rules was considered “dishonourable”. And the 4 max was one of those rules.

[Just A Girl]

by yaris i take it you mean yari ashigaru. Or at H9.. th dreaded Super ashi.
Any way theres no real need to worry abouty dishonerable players.
I can repetedly kick them out till they become honerable :)
(But i refuse to ban any 1, "youd need to do something Prety special to get me to ban you")

ANY WAY...
To adress your post farther

Im sure some 1 told me it was 4 max muskets at 1 point. Then it balooned in to 4 max units,
And then even later no super ashis. (high honour yari ashigaru)
and finaly No ashi's at all.
(as people kept loosing there rag when they saw any ashigaru units on field High honour or not)

How ever there were never any steps taken to compensate for the loss of the ashis.
And that is all that i hope to address.

P.S

Im sorry for hyjaking this thread.

[Drisos]

The max rule was also to prevent all-Kensai and all-WM armies I thought.

IMO it could be lifted for YS indeed.. but for muskets no way..

[Kansuke]

Deleted.............

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The max rule was also to prevent all-Kensai and all-WM armies I thought.

IMO it could be liften for YS indeed.. but for muskets no way..

YS are super as well really. They defeat all other melee units for the same koku and of course destroy cavalry. They're the backbone of a good infantry line.

YS not important, ca not effective, you people are playing this game weird lol

[Kansuke]

Hi Mim,

Totally agree with you!

[AggonyDuck]

I'll second that!

[Tomisama]

I’ll third it

Yari Sams and Cav Archers “are” indispensable…

The units I can do without are Kensai and Battlefield Ninja. Maybe because they were not in the original Shogun, but more likely because I personally consider them to be unrealistic.

You can play with them if you want, and I won’t say anything. But I can’t, anymore than I can take more than 4 of any given unit, which has been my own personal standard through years of playing Total War.

You may beat me, that’s OK. But if you loose to me, please know that it happened with a basic balanced army

[Drisos]

The units I can do without are Kensai and Battlefield Ninja. Maybe because they were not in the original Shogun, but more likely because I personally consider them to be unrealistic.

Hmmm I do without arq's and naginata as well

Mimesaka where did I mention YS not important lol... I take 4 of them 90% of my battles probably.

Hmmm perhaps I wasn't awake last post - ys are super as well I guess.

but I won't say I fear 8 ca still got to convince me there

[Puzz3D]

Tecnhically.....
a honour 6 Ys beats a honour 5 Nd.

Don't you see how wrong that is? The YS is cheaper than the ND that it beats.

[Puzz3D]

The max rule was also to prevent all-Kensai and all-WM armies I thought.

IMO it could be lifted for YS indeed.. but for muskets no way..

The 4 max musket rule was used when playing at the designed 7k koku or lower once it was determined by the majority of players that muskets were too powerful. Of course, I knew they were too powerful the day beta testing ended on v1.02 and the stat was sent off to CA. I opposed the increase of musket power from 3 to 5, but was only able to get a compromise of power 4 which was still above the value at which all the multiplayer beta testing had been conducted.

The cost of WM had been raised from 500 koku to 550 koku, and that solved the all WM rush at 7k koku. The kensai was specifically altered for v1.02 to be more vulnerable to ranged fire because all-kensai armies were a problem in v1.01, and I don't remember all kensai being viable at 7k. All cav rush armies didn't work either against more balanced armies which had at least 6 YS infantry.

One thing to understand is that the cost of weapon and armor upgrades is not calculated correctly. They are calculated using the base cost of the unit regardless of its honor upgrades. The CA programmer who designed the battle AI and balanced the units admitted it after players had proven it with testing and showed him the results. That miscalculation is the reason superashi exist because the unbalancing effect of the upgrades is most pronounced with low cost units, but it also causes increasing balance problems as koku is raised above 7k. I think this is why players who continued to play v1.02 eventually moved to a 4 max of any unit and no-ashi rule.

If the v1.02 stat was good, you wouldn't need any rules limiting units. The earlier STW v1.12 is actually a better balanced game despite the monk rush issue. That was played at 5k koku, and there were no unit limits used. There were also no weapon and armor upgrades. Some time ago I made a stat for WE/MI which duplicates the STW v1.12 stat, so it is possible to get back to that gameplay using WE/MI if you don't use the weapon and armor upgrades or the new units specific to WE/MI. I don't think the monk rush would work because WM cost 550 in WE/MI. The cost of guns is also a little higher which would be another difference.

[Tomisama]

If I remember right, guns in STW were useless if there was any moisture in the air, and half the time rain was unavoidable. This may have been why there was a push to increase their power. But to do that, “and” remove the certainty of rain, “and” lessen rain’s effects (not sure how much), certainly unbalanced things.

(just thinking out loud )

P.S. Yuuki, I would sincerely appreciate your opinion on what koku level would be best for our upcoming 2v2 Tourney. Thanks in advance

[Puzz3D]

Yuuki, I would sincerely appreciate your opinion on what koku level would be best for our upcoming 2v2 Tourney. Thanks in advance.

I think v102 could be interesting at 5k with no unit limits except no muskets allowed. As I recall, you don't have to ban YA at 5k.

[Just A Girl]

I still think in real life if you trained sword men to a poor standard.
And a nother province trained there yari sams to a high standard.
That that would mean the sword men loose in battle.

I thought h5 ND and h6 YS were aproximatly the same price.
Or close to at the least.
Although i would need to go test that out like i did with the ashigarus to be sure.

But then again,
I also say cav shouldnt be able to head on charge 4 lines of muskets wityhout geting shot to pieces.
Some disagree there as well.

[AggonyDuck]

But cav do get shot to pieces, if the musks are on fire at will...

[Just A Girl]

The diference in price of YS hon and ND hon. Are about 1/3rd
Being that the ND costs aproximatly 1/3rd more than the YS per bonus.
Weapon and armour Bonuses are aproximatly 60 koku more for the ND per additon,
So there not really that diferently priced....
h5 ND cost just under 50 koku More than h6 YS.

But it does seem to imply YS are given a slight unfair advantage.
(posibly due to Honour giving 2 combat points per bonus instead of 1)
And as a result I dont believe allowing 8 YS would be a great idea.

Prehaps 6 would be better?
i see puzz3d mentions the use of 6YS. in an earlier post, which counters heavy cavalry charges.

All cav rush armies didn't work either against more balanced armies which had at least 6 YS infantry.

do people still dissagree that we should compensate for the loss of 4 Possible pole arm units
Without penalizing Cav units?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The diference in price of YS hon and ND hon. Are about 1/3rd
Being that the ND costs aproximatly 1/3rd more than the YS per bonus.
Weapon and armour Bonuses are aproximatly 60 koku more for the ND per additon,
So there not really that diferently priced....
h5 ND cost just under 50 koku More than h6 YS.

The point is that since ys cost less, have more armor, get a huge bonus vs cavaly, and will defeat the nd h2h, there is no reason to bring the nd except for the 4 max rule. If we had played with 6 ys allowed, everyone would have brought 6 ys. I'd sooner go without muskets than without yari sam. Cav rush armies are just not that effective in 1.02. If you bring some ca and along with the h2h cav and shoot around, you have a good chance, but that's really a whole different game.

[Puzz3D]

i see puzz3d mentions the use of 6YS. in an earlier post, which counters heavy cavalry charges.

That was in multiplayer battles tests done at 7k koku with muskets of power 3.

BTW, guns are not supposed to stop a frontal charge by HC or NC and possibly not even YC. The idea is supposed to be that guns have to be protected by anti-cav units. Also, swords should be beating ant-cav infantry of lower cost. Using too many upgrades breaks the game because cheaper units get the same quality upgrade as more expensive units for less cost. The system can probably tolerate a double honor upgrade, but that's about it.

Upgrades also boost morale which is a problem because the morale system is not scaleable. The battle system only works properly over a very limited range of morale. YS have lower morale for a reason, and when a lot of honor upgrades are used that morale deficiency is removed. A unit such as ND has high morale, and as such doesn't benefit much from boosting morale whereas the YS is benefitting greatly. All the low morale units, YA, SA, YS, CA and guns are affected a lot by morale boosting upgrades.

The reason players moved from 7k to 10k was to get the morale up so that guns wouldn't rout a unit right away. I think the guns are at the root of the problem with v1.02, although, the cost of weapon and armor upgrades are also not calculated correctly and the infantry moves too slow relative to the fighting speed.

[Just A Girl]

Well why dosent every 1 use muskets h0?
They will run away..
But not if you defend them right (probably even if you do)
Would that help much?

[Tomisama]

Ok, I did a little research this morning.

The Sengoku Period started with the 10 year Onin War in the mid 1400s. Firearms were not brought to Japan until the mid 1500s. So if we were to claim an early era Shogun Competition, we could rightfully exclude guns.

I would also like to exclude Kensai and Battlefield Ninja, as they are respectfully legend and myth. Also part of my research.

The Naginata seems to have been an ancient weapon even by the 1400s. But I am tempted to think of it’s primary use by that time, as an anti cavalry, not a cavalry weapon. I could be wrong but think that Naginata Cavalry should be excluded also (and I do use these myself).

It would be good to have a historian look into the above for verification, but I think it is reasonably sound. Basically removing from the Warlord Expansion, all unit types not in the original STW, and banning Arquebusiers and Musketeers.

To me, with the above gun restriction, playing at 5000 koku becomes very interesting

Thoughts?

[Puzz3D]

It would be good to have a historian look into the above for verification, but I think it is reasonably sound. Basically removing from the Warlord Expansion, all unit types not in the original STW, and banning Arquebusiers and Musketeers.

To me, with the above gun restriction, playing at 5000 koku becomes very interesting

Thoughts?

I think you can leave the Arquebusiers in the game. They have the accuracy of the muskets in original STW, don't fire in rain, have higher power, but are much slower firing and shorter range. They are cheaper than the original muskets, but they might work ok in the gameplay. You could run some test battles to make sure.

My own feeling on battlefield ninja and kensai is that they don't fit well into the battle engine. They benefit too much from battlefield upgrades, and aren't even balanced well, despite great effort to do so, in STWmod for MTW/VI which doesn't have battlefield upgrades.

The naginata cav does serve a gameplay purpose as assault cav if you wan't that kind of unit in the game. However, I don't think it's necessary to have it in the game especially if muskets are eliminated.

[Tomisama]

I think you can leave the Arquebusiers in the game.

I guess if we were going to move up to the 16th century, they would be ok.

Chinese handguns entered Japan in 1510. But the Arquebus had to wait for a Portuguese shipwreck in 1543. Six years later, the Tanegashima matchlock (reproduced Arquebus), was in first used in battle, remaining virtually unchanged until the 1860s.

As far as I can find, “any” muskets must have been imported from Europe (Spain) in the later half of the century, but the Japanese were not manufacturing them. So I doubt that there would have been many of them in comparison to their own guns.