Do you think the Aztec faction will work?

**Midnight** · 01-25-2006, 21:52

The Aztecs do look more than a little out of place on the faction list, and I'd also have preferred more notice being taken of the eastern nations, but I'd like to know exactly how they plan to integrate the Aztecs into the game before saying whether or not they'll work.

**Doug-Thompson** · 01-25-2006, 22:13

... when you consider that the Spanish discovery of the New World is a scant 38 years from the conclusion of the campaign game.

Yes, but Cortez conquest was complete by the end of 1521, nine years before the game ends. It was an historical event of profound importance. Honestly, how could it be ignored? It will have to be part of the victory conditions of a Spanish faction, for instance.

The only part that bothers me is: Whether or not CA will modify plague rules severely enough to realisticaly model the effect on the Aztecs.

Two out of every five Aztecs in their capital city died, if memory serves, of smallpox pretty shortly after Cortez arrived. Frankly, it doesn't sound like a pleasant prospect to me to play a faction where you suffer 40 percent casualties before landing a blow.

**Brutus** · 01-26-2006, 13:42

Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

Yes, but Cortez conquest was complete by the end of 1521, nine years before the game ends. It was an historical event of profound importance. Honestly, how could it be ignored? It will have to be part of the victory conditions of a Spanish faction, for instance.

Hmm, I think Europeans at the time (especially in 1521) thought other developments much more important thant the conquest of Mexico. The main geo-political events concerning Europeans in the early 16th century mainly revolved around the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans, the Habsburg-Valois rivalry and (very quickly becoming important, but not really before the German Peasant's War) the Reformation. The Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire was far more important in the long term then it was in the short term, and the impact on Europe was very marginal in the 9 years between 1521 and 1530.

I hope they won't be included as a fully-fledged faction. They would be out of place.

**Kraxis** · 01-26-2006, 14:44

Who says that we can only get here in 1492?

The capability to get the Americas was there since... well the Vikings to be honest. It was the will that lacked.
Sure it got easier with the compass and other inventions, but sailors were not bad at knowing which way was what even without them.

So I think it is going to be a case of certain requirements are filled for the chance to go to America is opened.
And I cincerely doubt the Aztecs will be playable in the normal sense. And I doubt that their lands are part of the main map. As they say, it is an extension of the map. That sounds like, a ship that goes [here] will end up in another map.

**Doug-Thompson** · 01-26-2006, 15:02

Originally Posted by Brutus

Hmm, I think Europeans at the time (especially in 1521) thought other developments much more important thant the conquest of Mexico. The main geo-political events concerning Europeans in the early 16th century mainly revolved around the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans, the Habsburg-Valois rivalry and (very quickly becoming important, but not really before the German Peasant's War) the Reformation. The Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire was far more important in the long term then it was in the short term, and the impact on Europe was very marginal in the 9 years between 1521 and 1530.

I respectfully disagree. A few shiploads of Aztec gold would have made any of those tasks much easier.

As somebody is quoted in R:TW as saying: "They have an abundance of gold and silver, which makes war, like other things, much easier."

Also, Kraxis makes an excellent point. Columbus had been lobbying for the expedition since 1485.

**Brutus** · 01-26-2006, 15:46

Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

I respectfully disagree. A few shiploads of Aztec gold would have made any of those tasks much easier.

As somebody is quoted in R:TW as saying: "They have an abundance of gold and silver, which makes war, like other things, much easier."

Also, Kraxis makes an excellent point. Columbus had been lobbying for the expedition since 1485.

As far as I know, the main economic consequence of the Spanish conquest of the America's was through the mining of silver, not by the golden treasure of the Aztecs. I have however no real idea how great the original Aztec treasure was. This would have taken a little longer to take effect. Also, if (in the game) you conquered these treasures in 1521, you would only have about 9 years (wich would be... 18 turns?) to use it, which wouldn't be very long.

Of course, I agree with the both of you that there would be no reason why a nation couldn't discover the America's before 1492 in the game (apart from the Vikings, there are several other claims, amongst which some Irish (apart from St. Brendan) and Portuguese, to have 'discovered' America before Columbus, I believe). That would however leave the problem of the Aztecs only becoming a 'nation' recognisable in history in the mid-14th century, so they would be very late-game.

**Kraxis** · 01-26-2006, 17:16

Originally Posted by Brutus

That would however leave the problem of the Aztecs only becoming a 'nation' recognisable in history in the mid-14th century, so they would be very late-game.

I doubt the game will consider that for that reason.
I just think that in the 1350s or so the timerequirement is completed and then you can begin to fill the others. So around 1400, which was indeed a naval time you should be set for going to America. But it would be that time because the cultural feeling lacked substial amounts of will previously. In the late 14th and early 15th the will was suddenly there. European culture was now redy to go out and look.

I stress, that I do not think the Aztecs are playable in the main campaign. Even the most foolish PR announcer can understand they would be horribly boring if played from 1080 (which would be rather impossible, but then again time has never been a problem).

**GoreBag** · 01-26-2006, 19:43

I think it's a good idea. I'm sure the faction will emergy a la BI at a certain point, and the map will be off-limits until then or something else that will be justified. CA has never put Aztecs in their games before, why not? It makes perfect sense.

**Voigtkampf** · 01-26-2006, 15:57

I am most suspicious about the Aztecs. I will have to wait and see the end result, but at this point, I hardly think they will fit in to the game the way they should. The reasonable expansion would be, as Spino said, towards east. And it would be one that would be, IMDHO of course, far more interesting.