Hamas Victory in Palestine?!

[Idaho]

Whoa... not quite sure what will play out here.

I think it was probably good that Fatah were given the boot. They were too corrupt and had failed after too long.

I'm all in favour of militant groups bringing fresh impetus and then being moderated by power. If allowed to run it's course it usually ends well.

[BDC]

Hopefully. It's a bit hard to continue the military aspect when you're expected to take responsibility.

I too heard Fatah went because of corruption. So another good aspect potentially there.

[Kommodus]

Interesting. I recall that the Palestinian Authority was originally the PLO, itself a terrorist organization. Optimistically speaking, Hamas may change in a similar fashion. However...

The realist in me suspects that this is nothing short of a catastrophe. Hamas has yet to show any inclination that it intends to pursue peace with Isreal, or even accept the very existance of Isreal. This situation is likely to lead to another escalation of violence which will last for another several decades at least.

Even when the PLO "went legit" and became the PA, violence remained prevalent for a long time, as the PA was unable/unwilling to reign in militant Palestinian groups. We may simply see a repeat of that debacle. Worst-case scenario: Hamas uses its new-found power to actively mobilize more and more Palestinians into its armed campaigns in its continuing efforts to "destroy Isreal"; Isreal responds with brutal force, re-occupying land ceded to the Palestinians and destroying fragile Palestinian government infrastructure. The region is returned to full-scale guerilla war and the peace process is set back by decades, resulting in thousands of deaths on both sides, increased oppression of the Palestinians, and a lasting legacy of hatred and fear.

Oh yes, it's a very happy day for the Palestinians...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh great now the terrorists are in charge. This looks really bad to me. Doesnt show much sense on the part of the Palestinians.

[Watchman]

Yes, thank you for your deep and insightful analysis.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yes, thank you for your deep and insightful analysis.

Whats to analize? Its pretty obvious. Is Hamas a terrorist organization or not? Do they want peace with Isreal or Israel one piece at a time?

[Idaho]

If the Palestinian people have chosen to elect a more extreme party it just shows that Israel has over-egged the pudding with regards to destabilising the palestinian state. They control the economy and so by relentlessly destroying infrastructure have created a failed state.

How anyone can expect the Palestinian areas to be anything other than f*%$£d is beyond me. Roads are checkpointed. Exports are prevented from being shipped/moved/sold. Palestinian land is appropriated. Most is under curfew. Tanks rumble up and down broken up streets. Hospitals operate with walls missing.

It's a total basketcase. The question is really why did it take so long for an extremist politcal party to get elected in Palestine when there has been one in Israel for so long?

[Watchman]

Probably mainly because old man Arafat was more of an ace politician than he's commonly given credit for and it took a while for his influence to dissipate. Mind you, I've read Palestinian dissidents decry him (back when he was still alice and kicking) as the hired thug of Israel and its backers who keeps the place about under control in exchange of a hefty cut from the assorted aid funds.

*shrug*

That's certainly one way of looking at it.

[Hurin_Rules]

If the Palestinian people have chosen to elect a more extreme party it just shows that Israel has over-egged the pudding with regards to destabilising the palestinian state. They control the economy and so by relentlessly destroying infrastructure have created a failed state.

How anyone can expect the Palestinian areas to be anything other than f*%$£d is beyond me. Roads are checkpointed. Exports are prevented from being shipped/moved/sold. Palestinian land is appropriated. Most is under curfew. Tanks rumble up and down broken up streets. Hospitals operate with walls missing.

It's a total basketcase. The question is really why did it take so long for an extremist politcal party to get elected in Palestine when there has been one in Israel for so long?

I have to agree. While this is not the only cause of the victory-- Fatah itself must shoulder much of the blame for its notorious corruption--one has to ask what exactly the Israelis expected. They isolated Arafat, besieging him in his compound so that he could not govern the country, then went about systematically dismantling the Palestinian Authority, bulldozing their buildings, making incursions into their cities, destroying their police stations. Is it any wonder his party and government were perceived as ineffectual? By the time Abbas got in, the situation was virtually untenable. Sad, it surely is, but what else could they have expected?

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

this will be interesting.

Thoughts from a Jewish (may as well call him an Israeli wannabe) friend:

Israel'll give a big chunk of the West Bank to the Palestinian Authority soon.

Hamas being in charge'll mean that Israel will be under constant attack again.

But now when they retaliate there won't be much international backlash as the Palestinians will basically be an attacking foreign state (as seems to have been happening with Gaza).

Also, civil conflict in the nascent Palestinian state looks distinctly possible.

[Kommodus]

Roads are checkpointed. Exports are prevented from being shipped/moved/sold. Palestinian land is appropriated. Most is under curfew. Tanks rumble up and down broken up streets. Hospitals operate with walls missing.

Granted. But additionally, how can one expect the security situation to be any different, when every week another Palestinian walks into a crowded Isreali bus or restaurant and blows himself and scores of Isrealis to pieces?

Now I realize that this isn't currently happening as frequently, but I remember when reports of terrorist attacks were coming several times a week. Then there would be a lull, and security restrictions would be relaxed - maybe some checkpoints removed - but then it would happen again, and Isreal would retaliate and reestablish the security, and the same story would repeat itself.

What we have here is an impasse. Isreal won't relinquish control until the terrorism stops. The Palestinians can't build a successful state with all those restrictions in place. The failure of the Palestinian state and the feelings of oppression, in turn, fuel more terrorism. Would the terrorism stop even if the Palestinians did get a free, viable state? Not according to Hamas and other militant groups - they'll settle for nothing less than the destruction of Isreal.

Now, prolonged periods of peace, aided by patience and restraint on both sides, could eventually break this impasse. As violence subsides, Isreal has shown a willingness to cede land back to the Palestinians, giving them increasing self-rule. Unfortunately it only takes one major terrorist attack to reverse months of hard-won progress.

It's a total basketcase. The question is really why did it take so long for an extremist politcal party to get elected in Palestine when there has been one in Israel for so long?

Well, for a long time there weren't free Palestinian elections. Also, for a long time Arafat was the face of Palestinian resistance, and he was the man his people looked to for leadership. The peace process, and the Palestinian quest for self-rule, has made more rapid progress under Abbas than it ever did under Arafat, but unfortunately I think the Palestinians attribute that to Hamas, which claims to have "driven out" the Isrealis from Gaza.

The Palestinians apparently want to see what Hamas can do for them that Fatah couldn't. I guess they're about to find out.

[Viking]

I think it was probably good that Fatah were given the boot. They were too corrupt and had failed after too long.

You believe that a terrorist organisation will have less corruption? I don`t think so..


The true solution to the middle east conflict is to evacuate the Israelian state, and whoila: problem solved.
The stupidest move of the UN ever, was to establish the Israelian state.

[doc_bean]

The true solution to the middle east conflict is to evacuate the Israelian state, and whoila: problem solved.
The stupidest move of the UN ever, was to establish the Israelian state.

I'm afraid that's almost purely the fault of the US...

About Hamas: this might be a good thing, they might try a peaceful approach and when they fail, another, now smaller terrorist group will rise again and call them sell outs. In the long run it won't matter much, but it might give a little peace in the short run, and who knows, save a few lives.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

that's right, the Jews are the problem...

...removing them all from Israel (including the indigenous Jewish community) would fix it.

[doc_bean]

that's right, the Jews are the problem...

...removing them all from Israel (including the indigenous Jewish community) would fix it.

Well removing all the Arabs would work to, what's your point ? If two parties are fighting, pulling them apart is the easiest way to end the fight.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Well removing all the Arabs would work to, what's your point ? If two parties are fighting, pulling them apart is the easiest way to end the fight.

My point is that nobody's suggesting that all Arabs be removed to fix the problem.

[Slyspy]

Turning back the clock and removing the nation state of Israel is not an option. It will be interesting to see how Hamas will run things. Although labelled a terrorist organisation they have been the prime source of social support and local authority in Palestinian settlements, especially since the PA has either been, or has been reduced to being, ineffectual in so many ways under Fatah.

It is possible to work with the political elements of terrorist organisations. Just look at Northern Ireland. The closest it has ever been to peace since Sinn Fein were included in the political makeup of the province. Of course even in NI this has not worked perfectly and in Palestine, as in NI being viewed as a legitimate political force goes hand in hand with disarming the militants. This is the true test of Hamas' character and power.

[Viking]

My point is that nobody's suggesting that all Arabs be removed to fix the problem.

There`s a hell lot more Arabs than Jews in that region,; but most important is that the Arabs were in the middle east before the Jews, who didn`t arrive until 1940`s or something. Do not get me wrong on this statement.

[Slyspy]

I think you mean Israelis, not Jews.

[Vladimir]

There`s a hell lot more Arabs than Jews in that region,; but most important is that the Arabs were in the middle east before the Jews, who didn`t arrive until 1940`s or something. Do not get me wrong on this statement.

You mean 1940 BC right?

[Viking]

I think you mean Israelis, not Jews.

Pretty much the same. 76% of Israels population are Jews.

You mean 1940 BC right?

Until the 1940`s AD and from some centuries back in time, Jews was only a miniority in the Middle East. Then, suddenly in the 1940`s AD, they make up the majority again.

[Bar Kochba]

just shows the stupid pressure the world puts on israel to give away there land to staisfy these "palastinins" is wrong and that theyare even more hostile to jews as jews r to them

[Ironside]

You mean 1940 BC right?

Not really, the Jewish community that was there after the diaspora was quite small and lived in peace with the locals. Then the Zionism and Arabic nationalism started to show it's ugly face, starting in the late ninetinth century (primarly zionism at that time, the arabic nationalism is of later date).

As for the election, hopefully the election will shatter Hamas is such a way that the more moderate element will get support by the Palestinians and be able to destroy the pure radicals. Hard to pull off but can be done.

Worst case scenario is that Hamas can actually rule well and that a few political mistakes by Israel will rally the Palestinians in a way that will set-back the peace-process several decades.


Most likely scenario is that chaos will erupt though.

As for the Isrealis, tough situation.
The only thing I can recommend is that when it comes to terrorist attacks try hard to maintain ceasefire, endure some attacks without retaliation (make sure that they don't any real reason for "justification" of those attacks), but make it very clear that a continuation will be retaliated hard, very hard. If attacks continues, hit hard, swiftly and focused and then quickly stop and ask: "Wanna play again?".
A few of these should make the Palestinians catch the message and the terrorist organisations should get it quite a bit harder.

But playing true hardballs with Hamas because of the election won't work, as long as the Israelis is seen a the enemy and not "a nature force (or reactant)", Hamas will be fed by such actions.

just shows the stupid pressure the world puts on israel to give away there land to staisfy these "palastinins" is wrong and that theyare even more hostile to jews as jews r to them

The problem is that both sides have failed to present a stable solution, that doesn't feels like it's going to fall apart.
And IMO the West-bank and the Gaza-strip isn't Israeli territory, not because of the occupation, but because Israel doesn't treat the area as thier own territory, but acts as a occupier in it. Israel will never try to annex that territory either, or the new Israeli president would come from Hamas.

[Reverend Joe]

Jews were living throughout the Middle East, in large numbers, long before there was an Israeli state. After Israel was formed, almost all of those Jews were forced to move to Israel, for fear of reprisal by their fellow countrymen.

If we really want to solve the problem, let's just pull all of them out and give the land back to Egypt- or, better yet, let's reform the Assyrian Empire! Assyria shall rise again!

Sometimes, I feel like the only Jew in the world who thinks the Israeli state was a really bad idea.

[Bar Kochba]

Not really, the Jewish community that was there after the diaspora was quite small and lived in peace with the locals. Then the Zionism and Arabic nationalism started to show it's ugly face, starting in the late ninetinth century (primarly zionism at that time, the arabic nationalism is of later date).

As for the election, hopefully the election will shatter Hamas is such a way that the more moderate element will get support by the Palestinians and be able to destroy the pure radicals. Hard to pull off but can be done.

Worst case scenario is that Hamas can actually rule well and that a few political mistakes by Israel will rally the Palestinians in a way that will set-back the peace-process several decades.


Most likely scenario is that chaos will erupt though.

As for the Isrealis, tough situation.
The only thing I can recommend is that when it comes to terrorist attacks try hard to maintain ceasefire, endure some attacks without retaliation (make sure that they don't any real reason for "justification" of those attacks), but make it very clear that a continuation will be retaliated hard, very hard. If attacks continues, hit hard, swiftly and focused and then quickly stop and ask: "Wanna play again?".
A few of these should make the Palestinians catch the message and the terrorist organisations should get it quite a bit harder.

But playing true hardballs with Hamas because of the election won't work, as long as the Israelis is seen a the enemy and not "a nature force (or reactant)", Hamas will be fed by such actions.

but how can u tell the israelis to wait they have been having terrorist attacks since the start of the state the should be more aggresive and stop prostetuting the country to meet amirecas need to be seen as the peacemaker of the world

[Ironside]

but how can u tell the israelis to wait they have been having terrorist attacks since the start of the state the should be more aggresive and stop prostetuting the country to meet amirecas need to be seen as the peacemaker of the world

Because the guy that uses the sledgehammer after some very, very serious provoction on that annoying bastard that tries to get into a fist fight so that his friend will join in and kick ass, looks like a very patient guy and the dork that provokes gets more of a suit yourself response, compared to the situation with the guy that jumps into the fist-fight right away.

The intent is to endure them temporarly (and to be very clear that avenging 5 attacks will be 5 times worse then avenging 1) to make them finally stop in the end.

As for a more aggresive Israel, were do you want them to go? Occupying large parts of the Middle-east? This would either mean Iraq hundred times worse or a nice little genocide. Tougher on the Palestinians? Read above, but not as messy or not as bloody.
It seems that actually suffering from a genocide does make you think twice before preforming one.

As for the US support to the peace process. It would be better for thier public relations if one of their closest allies wasn't seen with such poorly reputation in an important econimical area (read oil). US truly aiming for a peacemaker rep? That's a new one.

[King Henry V]

Yes, another peace loving party elected by peace loving Palestinians! I love liberals...

[Bar Kochba]

so u want israel to just smile and take punches like a jack ass

how would you like it if some eight foot bully was pushing u the small 2 ft hobbit around

[Proletariat]

I'm all in favour of militant groups bringing fresh impetus and then being moderated by power. If allowed to run it's course it usually ends well.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...r/dictator.htm

[Goofball]

Yes, another peace loving party elected by peace loving Palestinians! I love liberals...

Erm...

What the hell does this have to do with liberals?

Other than the fact that liberals are pretty much to blame for anything conservatives don't like, anyway...