Hamas Victory in Palestine?!

[Adrian II]

But what the hell Adrian its easier to believe that its the fault of the United States then to actually read the history of events.

I guess people confuse the historic role of the U.S. with its present position with regard to Israel.

[Redleg]

I guess people confuse the historic role of the U.S. with its present position with regard to Israel.

I believe you are correct with this assumption.

[Proletariat]

A few seem to be confusing the Jew's historic position. Hooray for a government basically centered on genocide.

[Devastatin Dave]

Anay mutha bumpa out dar dat bolives in Democracy shud be sending mad luv to dis. Now if de muthas getz all actin' a foo and all den we gotz an address of dar crib to bust a cap in dat azz. So befo' we get all chimpy and start playin' hatin' on dis, letz see wut up befo we getz crazy stupid and don't give dis a chance. Word is bond...

[Goofball]

So Goofball No, it's not. In fact, they have now stated that they firmly intend to keep that little tidbit as an integral part of their charter.

They have not firmly stated it , in fact there is another motion for acceptance of the pre '67 borders , and another for unilateral ceasefire , and one more for negotiated settlement .

Depends what news source you listen to I guess. I made that statement because listening to the news on the radio on my way to work yesterday, I heard something to the effect of "Even amid calls from other nations to delete the requirement for the destruction of Israel from their Charter, Hamas representatives state that this goal will remain an integral part of their party's policy."

[King Henry V]

Erm...

What the hell does this have to do with liberals?

Other than the fact that liberals are pretty much to blame for anything conservatives don't like, anyway...

Because liberals tend to be Palestine's staunchest supporters (you being the obvious exception).

[Idaho]

The 33 countries that voted in favor of UN Resolution 181: Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Belarus, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukraine South Africa, USSR, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela.

The 13 countries that voted against UN Resolution 181: Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

The ten countries that abstained: Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

I didn't know all that. All the countries that were nowhere near and probably wouldn't have to deal with the ramifications thought it was a good idea. And all those who were near it and thought the idea sucked were outvoted. Heheheh.. do you think perhaps it should have been up to the countries it would actually effect?

[Goofball]

See how much cash from the international community Hamas is able to bring in. (Not counting donations from Hezbollah, mind you.)

I'm glad to see it looks like $$ might already be drying up. Nothing definite yet, but our new Prime Minister designate seems to be moving in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned:

OTTAWA -- The new Conservative government wants clear evidence that Hamas rejects violence before recognizing the Palestinian group's democratic credentials, Stephen Harper says.
He said yesterday he'll have more to say about the Palestinian election after he is sworn in as prime minister on Feb. 6.
While the Conservatives support the creation of a democratic Palestinian state, "for a nation to be truly democratic it must renounce any use of terrorism," he said.
Mr. Harper is keeping details of his Palestinian policy under wraps until he can implement it. But a proposed Liberal government aid package of $50-million for the Palestinian Authority could be at risk.

[Ser Clegane]

I'm glad to see it looks like $$ might already be drying up.

Indeed

Palestinians Face Possible Cash Crunch

Several politicians from the European Union -- the largest donor to the Palestinians -- have called for an end to Europe's financial support should Hamas take part in a government while refusing to renounce violence.

The parliamentary foreign policy spokesman for Germany's ruling Christian Democrats, Eckart von Klaeden, said international aid to the Palestinians would only be possible if Hamas recognized Israel's right to exist, which the group -- designated as terrorist by both the United States and the European Union -- has so far refused from doing. "Hamas in now forced to play a constructive role," von Klaeden told SPIEGEL ONLINE.

Let's see how the situation in Palestine develops. In combination with the saber rattling from Iran, my optimism that Hamas will change fundamentally is currently somewhat limited ... but who knows ...

[Goofball]

The 33 countries that voted in favor of UN Resolution 181: Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Belarus, Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukraine South Africa, USSR, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela.

The 13 countries that voted against UN Resolution 181: Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

The ten countries that abstained: Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

I didn't know all that. All the countries that were nowhere near and probably wouldn't have to deal with the ramifications thought it was a good idea. And all those who were near it and thought the idea sucked were outvoted. Heheheh.. do you think perhaps it should have been up to the countries it would actually effect?

Another way of looking at it is that the countries that voted against it were for the most part Muslim/Arab nations who were motivated mainly by a hatred of Jews.

I'm just throwing that out there.

[Reenk Roink]

Another way of looking at it is that the countries that voted against it were for the most part Muslim/Arab nations who were motivated mainly by a hatred of Jews.

I'm just throwing that out there.

I'm thinking that most of the "hatred of Jews" came AFTER the creation of Israel...

[Viking]

I'm thinking that most of the "hatred of Jews" came AFTER the creation of Israel...

Yeah, exept from the Nazis..I agree with that. If the Jews that were scattered all over world had stayed scattered, I think we`d had a better Middle East situation than today.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Anti-Semitism has a long and proud (but not really) history throughout Europe and the Middle-East (by pagans, Christians, Muslims and atheists).

You'll find it existed in the the Islamic world long before the establishment of the state of Israel.

[Leet Eriksson]

Arab governments today stressed that hamas must change its policies for peace talks, either way Hamas seems like its in very deep **** day 1, becuase politically they don't know how to run the state. They even asked fateh to co-rule with them but fateh refused... it will be interesting how it all turns out.

Reminder: in 1992 an islamist party won the elections in jordan, of course jordan is a monarchy but they do elects different adminstrations each 4 years, and they did absolutely terrible, after their term was done it was all over for them. Hamas might also end up like them.

[LeftEyeNine]

They even asked fateh to co-rule with them but fateh refused...

I thought they had to form a coalition, didn't they ? Is it only because they don't know how to rule a state ?

[Reenk Roink]

Anti-Semitism has a long and proud (but not really) history throughout Europe and the Middle-East (by pagans, Christians, Muslims and atheists).

You'll find it existed in the the Islamic world long before the establishment of the state of Israel.

Definitely not at the levels today...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Definitely not at the levels today...

Oh please. Ever hear of the inqusition? Jews have been persecuted ever since Rome tossed them out. Everyone wanted them to go back to their own land until they got it. Its sort of like a prison. Everyone knows we need them but not in my neighborhood.

[Reenk Roink]

I was speaking of Arab hatred of Jews....

[Viking]

Oh please. Ever hear of the inqusition? Jews have been persecuted ever since Rome tossed them out. Everyone wanted them to go back to their own land until they got it. Its sort of like a prison. Everyone knows we need them but not in my neighborhood.

The Jews did actually leave peaceful side-by-side with Muslims in back in the 13th(believe so) century. The peaceful co-existence existed until the Muslims were thrown out of Spain, and the Christian took over the rule. The Jews were then horribly persecuted. This was also the case on early crusades were the crusaders killed every Jew they could find on their way.

[Don Corleone]

I thought they had to form a coalition, didn't they ? Is it only because they don't know how to rule a state ?

Hamas won 72 seats, out of I believe 122. That is a stand alone majority, not requiring a coalition.

Hamas cannot remove the call for the destruction of Israel and the removal of all Jews from the Middle East. It is who they are and it is where they draw their recruiting support from. For them to get elected and immediately declare that they support a 2-state solution would more than likely cause widespread riots in Palestine. Palestinians voted for the end of Israel by putting Hamas in power. Even if Hamas wanted to backpedal on their tough talk, they are in a very sticky wicket indeed.

The best they could have hoped for was Fateh to have agreed to a power sharing agreement, and then they could have used Fateh as a boogeyman. Fateh was wise to allow Hamas to own this mess all alone. I don't think Iran and Saudi Arabia can single handedly support the fledgling Palestinian state, but it will be interesting to see.

My prediction is a compromise by Russia and the EU over the exact stance required of Hamas. Hamas cannot drop the language calling for the end of Israel, but they could (and probably will) call for an end to violent efforts to achieve this goal. That will be enough to soothe the EU, Russia, China and the aid will continue. The US will most likely halt it's aid and be blamed for an act of war against the Palestinians. Iranian support will now begin to go directly to Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad, who are under no sort of obligation to develop infrastructure or economic development. Much as with Fateh, Hamas's efforts to restrain the terrorism will wax and wane in an endless tide of public sentiment from the West, where the money comes from, and at home, where the political capital comes from.

At the end of the day, Palestinians will not be happy with any government that deals with Israel or acknowledges their right to exist. Any talk of a 2 state solution will be grounds for Hamas to leave just as quickly and decisively as Fateh. Next in power could be Islamic Jihad or some as yet unnamed group. In summary, it's the violence and anger the Palestinians want, not the hospitals and the schools.

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

dhimmitude surely sounds like it wasn't at all based on the fact that they were Jews (although it applies to other non-muslims too).

Second class citizenship based on religion anyone?

[Don Corleone]

dhimmitude surely sounds like it wasn't at all based on the fact that they were Jews (although it applies to other non-muslims too).

Second class citizenship based on religion anyone?

Dhimminitude would have to improve to be 2nd class citizenship, but in truth, it was a superior treatment to the way non Christians were treated in pre-Enlightment Europe. The obvious caveat there is the Enlightenment occurred 400 years ago. Hopefully, some movement of ecumenical tolerance will evolve within Islam, if it hasn't already.

[Dâriûsh]

...With this ongoing campaign, I am almost certain that they (the Hamas) will eventually supplant the PA.

The Hamas will continue to inflame the masses with rhetoric and promises. They have already had armed clashes with the Fatah and the PA loyalists. And while they're building their power, the PA, in its declining state, brought down by armed conflict and corruption, is losing its grip on the people. Yet I doubt the Hamas will manage any better, despite their financial support from the Oil States, Syria, and the rest of the usual suspects.

The Hamas now have the power to change things. But will they change it for the better or the worse? Right now, I have no idea where Palestine is heading, but I am hoping for the best.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Don C:

What a depressing analysis you've added to this. Very much a SSDD assessment -- and I fear an all too accurate one.

[Leet Eriksson]

I thought they had to form a coalition, didn't they ? Is it only because they don't know how to rule a state ?

Hamas asked for coalition, but fateh refused.

[Nerouin]

Let's put up some facts here:

Hamas was not started as a vehicle for the creation of a Palestinian state. It was started as a vehicle for the destruction of Israel and the creation of a Muslim state in its place.

18% of Israel's citizens are Arabs. Most of those 18% are Muslims.

Israel's security measures are not intended to oppress Palestinians, but to protect Israelis. In this regards they have been fabulously successful, preventing 95% of terrorist attacks and in doing so saving many Palestinian as well as Israeli lives. The fence around the West Bank and Gaza has been the most effective of these measures-- since it was built, terrorist attacks have dropped precipitously.

When Israel was first voted into existence, along with an Arab state from other territory within the British territory of Palestine, Arab violence against Jews began immediately. As a result, much of it became Arab vs Jew. Many Arabs were chased from Israel. Every last Jews was evicted from the West Bank. Revealingly, in 1967 there were hundreds of thousands of Arab Israeli citizens living in Israel, but not one Jew in the West Bank.

Palestinians receive the most per-capita aid of any people in the world. Adjusted for inflation, they have received twice as much aid per capita, for twice as long, as Europe did under the Marshall Plan after WWII. This amount of money would be plenty to ensure than every Palestinian was given at least the basic necessities. However, much of it was stolen by the PLO, and very little found its way to the Palestinians. Draw your own conclusions for why this was done, but had it not been, the Palestinians would not be in nearly as dire straits economically as they are today. Hence, while security measures do restrict the Palestinians economically, they are not as poor as they are today because of the Israelis, but rather because of their corrupt leaders.

Before the start of the intifadeh, Palestinians were better off than Arabs in almost every Arab country in the world.


The Jewish population in the British territory of Palestine grew from 60,000 in 1914 to 474,000 in 1941. This was before any whisper of a Jewish state. One may bring up the Balfour Declaration, but this was later nullified by the White Papers, which also restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine.

Whatever one may want to believe, immigration is not immoral. However, the rise in Jewish immigration in the early 1900s saw corresponding anti-Jewish race riots perpetrated by Arabs. Dozens of Jews were killed, and the Jewish community in Hebron was wiped out.

Arab Israelis have always been allowed political representation in the Israeli Parliament, the Knesset.

Jewish population everywhere in the Arab world (yes, there were millions) has declined 98% since 1948, while the Arab population in Israel has grown.

The Jewish settlements in the West Bank have only been allowed on:
a)Land in pre-existing Jewish communities, or
b)Land that was unowned (that is, was previously owned by the Jordanian government and had no private owner), or
c)Land purchased from established owners.
NO settlements were established on private Arab land.

Before the creation of the state of Israel, of the British territory of Palestine 11% was owned privately by Arabs (mostly landlords), 8% by Jews. The rest was the property of the British government.

The U.N. Partition Plan of 1947 created an Arab state from the territory of Palestine as well as a Jewish state. This Arab state's borders enclosed most of the fertile areas of Palestin

[solypsist]

how come bush isn't touting this election as part of his "democracy is on the march" in the middle east?

/edit - ninja'd

[Tribesman]

Deathtoallhumans . very good you know the document . Now could you explain what the "It being clearly understood....." part means .

Nerouin , your figures there are a very long way off from the facts of the British territory of Palestine 11% was owned privately by Arabs (mostly landlords), 8% by Jews. The rest was the property of the British government.
.
Try well over 40% for the arabs not 11% , and the rest was not the property of the British government neither was it British territory , it was held in trust for the inhabitants of Palestine to be allocated on an equitble basis .
The majority of inhabitants were arabs . So by allocating the vast majority of the land held in trust to the minority population there is a clear violation of the terms of the mandate , to add to the violation of the Balfour declaration and the White paper , the revised White paper , the Green Paper the king/Crane commision findings (though they were a bit dodgy anyway) , and the pledges given to both the local councils and the Arab League .
In fact just about every clause from every document concerning the creation of the Jewish Homeland was broken by the creation of the State wasn't it .

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Tribesman:

Jordan was part of the British mandate of Palestine too.
So I guess the majority did get the most land.

[Tribesman]

Jordan was part of the British mandate of Palestine too.
So I guess the majority did get the most land.
Nope the relevant figures do not include any of the territory of transjordan , neither do the population figures (though of course the creation of that State was also a violation of the terms of the Mandate and a violation of the "promise" that had been given to the Hashemites, but then again as they had also "promised " the land that they had " promised " them to someone else it just shows that the "promises " were not worth anything anyway ) .

The land held in trust and the arab owned land were pretty even in the high 40% bracket , the Jewish owned land and the land held by the Jewish agency amounted to a total of 8% at the highest figures and 6% at the lowest .
In the territory concerned they amounted to just over 30% of the population . Therefore in the mandated terms they should have recieved just over 30% of the trust land to add to their 8% . But they didn't did they . Plus prior to partition they siezed land that they hadn't been allocated ...... for "security reasons" which sounds somewhat familiar doesn't it .

Anyhow , back to topic .
It seems that the surprise scale of the electoral victory has caught Hamas completely off guard . They are now talking about forming a coilition instead of a majority government .
I wonder if this is because they feel they want to be inclusive or because they want a coilition partner to blame when things go wrong .