Religious People Maby should Not read this.

[Lemur]

Well, for starters you can leave monks out of it. If memory serves, the first monastary was founded in the Desert of Skete somewhere between 100 AD and 200 AD (if I could be bothered to go to Wikipedia, I'm sure I'd have the date down better). The Old Testament pre-dates the first monks by at least 2,000 years, and probably much more.

So we can talk about dirty court scribes, or dirty village storytellers, but the monks are blameless.

Just a Girl, if you're really curious about the OT, there are some wonderful books you could read. Forensic linguistics have done a lot to tell us when certain parts of it were written, and quite a lot is known about the later editings and revisions (Almost all of which pre-date Christianity).

Remember, the Bible is not a book -- it's a library. A subtle but important distinction.

[edit -- addendum]

I see Pape has finally decoded the true meaning of Lot and his daughters. "What happens in Sodom stays in Sodom."

[Just A Girl]

Hey dont get me wrong.
thi bible's great as a history referance (new testament)

But thats Not the bible in my eyes.

The bible is the old testament. And any thing els is just an addition,

So the OT was the definition of the lords word, before the new testament came allong.

And every 1 beleved in it's literal meaning And vilagers were hapy to say that there daugter was posessed by a demon cos she was hot to the touch.
And white as a sheet.
"cours science would call this a fever. But back then people were Reallly dumb, so they called it Demons, and Tried to preform exorzism"

Thats not bad, Cant blame them At the time thats The best explanation they could offer as to why Little suzie was 120 degrees and Throwing up green bile.

But thats how most of it goes.
Simple things, they could not explain get put down to either Miracles or act of god,

If it realy was anything to do with god.
Dont you think he/she would have pointed out...

"Well there not actualy the devil there viruses...
If you just collect some of that mold and make some penicilin.."

i mean its obvious... Now what caused them back then to beleve in such things,

These days Weve explained that the stars ARENT heaven.
(dont know where you guys think heaven is now)

weve showed that people Dont get posessed by deamons,
there viruses and colds.

A mental illnes does not mean you ar satan's love child.

Yet this Book is THE fundimental building blocks of some of the most influential religions today.

And its just a load of dumb storys strung together To try and explain The mysterys of life before science arived.

[Lemur]

I second Pape's motion -- you would do us all a great kindness if you would follow the basic traffic rules of written communication. In fact, you would do your arguments more justice if your readers didn't have to struggle so much.

Or I suppose you could go the opposite route -- abandon convention completely! The comma was another invention of those monks you dislike, so get rid of it! And putting spaces between words only came into vogue after the Roman Empire -- who needs them? Rock out, J.A.G., and show us the new/old form of English!

And its just a load of dumb storys strung together To try and explain The mysterys of life before science arived.

This seems to be the crux of your objection. You don't see any value to pre-science systems of belief, correct? And you don't see that they add any value to modern life.

It's very important to understand everything a tradition does before you throw it away. The French found this out in their revolution. The Russians found this out in theirs. It's no accident that the biggest auto-genocides in history happened in atheist states.

Human beings respond to a belief in a higher power. I don't care whether you are religious or not, you can't argue with this demonstrably true aspect of human nature. Since not everybody is going to be a super-evolved I-don't-need-no-stinkin'-belief-sysem kind of person, what do you propose they believe in? Science has no answers to ethical/moral problems. Science just examines what is, not what ought to be. Science is a methodology, not a religion. So why does religion bug you, J.A.G.?

[Papewaio]

Spellchecked variant:

Right. If you get offended don’t blame me. You probably didn’t pay attention to the title of the post topic.

Anyway here’s my problem.

It’s with the history of man "or the bible version". Now in the bible it says there was Adam and eve. God made Adam from dust. Then God used one of Adams ribs to make Eve, (guess you can’t make a woman from dust).

Now let us suppose that’s just some liberal interpretation of how Adam and eve were created. (So I can actually believe they existed now it says they had Children (Good step towards populating the earth). But there children happened to be 2 males......(See a problem arising yet?)

And then one of them kills the other one....so for the world to have been populated. Eve would have had to sleep with her own son. Or give birth to a daughter who could then sleep with her brother or father???

So does this mean incest is something that God smiles upon? Or does it just show how much BS goes into the bible?

Personally I think it shows the amounts of BS, which goes in to the bible.

Perhaps others have different views or more insight on the matter.

And don’t give me that metaphor bull. It says Adam and eve had 2 kids blatantly. Its not a metaphor that’s saying 2000 people had 4000 children between them. The bibles already tried to get out of saying categorically that the world was made in 6 days, and that the planet is only 6 thousand years old by stating that time in the bible is relative to 100's of years.

More BS if you ask me.

Any way chew on it. Mull it over and tell me what your opinions are.

So which number wife was Eve?
And was Eve the first woman too?
What happened to Seth the third son of Adam and Eve?
Or the mentioning of other sons and daughters?

[Just A Girl]

i dont see any referance to anything other than 1 eve here in this book....
And your edit of my post is missing a
)
and the sentance that starts after the ) you deleted Should be in a new paragraph as thats how i worte it...

[Just A Girl]

Thats Cheating.
I didnt see you edited.

I will need to read more in to the bible to answer your new aditional questions.

So dont be suprized if theres no reply in here for a while and then I post a 6 page essay.

[Just A Girl]

Ok.
Just for reference...

This is what i will be using as my referance. If any 1 cares.

The day Yahweh God made the earth and the heavens
5 no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung; Yahweh God had not sent rain on the earth, and there was no man to work the ground.
6 but streams arose from the earth and watered the entire surface of the ground.
7 And Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.
8 Now Yahweh God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he put the man he had formed.
9 And Yahweh God made every kind of tree grow from the ground, trees pleasant to the sight and good for food. And the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were in the middle of the garden.
10 And a river flowing from Eden watered the garden, and from there it divided and became four headstreams.
11 The name of the first is the Pishon, and it winds through the entire land of the Havilah where there is gold.
12 And the gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx stone are also there.
13 And the name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through all of the land of Cush.
14 And the name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs the east of Ashur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 And Yahweh God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and care for it.
16 And Yahweh God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat.
17 But from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you must not eat, for on the day you eat of it you will die."
18 And Yahweh God said, "It is not good that the man is alone. I will make for him a suitable helper."
19 Now Yahweh God formed from the ground all the animals of the field and all the birds of the air and he brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man named every living creature, that was its name.
20 So the man named all the cattle, and the birds of the air and every animal of the field. But for Adam he found no suitable helper.
21 So Yahweh God made the man fall into a deep sleep. And while he slept, he took one of the man's ribs and closed its place with flesh.
22 Then Yahweh God made a woman from the rib he had taken from the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 And the man said:
"This is now bone from my bone
and flesh from my flesh;
She shall be called woman,
for she was taken from man.
24 For this a man will leave his father and mother and will unite with to his wife, and they will become as one flesh."
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, but they felt no shame.


Chapter 3: 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than all the animals of the field which Yahweh God had made, and it said to the woman, "Did God really say you were not to eat from any tree of the garden?"
2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees in the garden. 3 But of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, 'You must not eat from it and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"
4 And the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die!
5 for God knows that on the day you eat from it your eyes will he opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6 And the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasant to the eyes, and desired to gain knowledge. And she took some fruit and ate it, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they realized that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of Yahweh God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from Yahweh God among the trees of the garden.
9 But Yahweh God called to the man and said to him, "Where are you?"
10 And he answered, "I heard the sound of you in the garden and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree I commanded you not to eat from?"
12 And the man said, "It was the woman you put with me; she gave to me from the tree and I ate."
13 And Yahweh God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me and I ate."
14 And Yahweh God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Be accursed above all cattle,
and all the animals of the field.
On your belly you will crawl and dust you will eat
all the days of your life.
15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman:
and between your offspring and her offspring.
He 3 will crush your head
and you will strike his heel."
16 To the woman he said:
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbirth;
in pain you will bear children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 And to Adam he said, "Because you listened to the voice of your wife and you ate from the tree I commanded, saying "you must not eat from it,"
"Cursed be the ground because of you.
With painful toil you will eat from it
all the days of your life.
18
It shall produce brambles and thistles for you,
and you shall eat wild plants.
19
By the sweat of your brow
will you eat food,
until you return to the ground,
since you were taken from it.
For dust you are
and to dust you will return."
20 And the man named his wife "Eve" because she would be the mother of all the living.
21 And Yahweh God made garments out of skins for the man and his wife, and he clothed them.
22 And Yahweh God said, "See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. And now he must be prevented from reaching out his hand and taking also from the tree of life and eating and so living forever."
23 So Yahweh God sent him from the garden of Eden, to work the ground from which he had been taken.
24 And he drove out the man, and he placed on the east side of the garden of Eden the cherubim and a flaming sword flashing around to guard the way to the tree of life.

Chapter 4: 1 And the man had knowledge of 4 Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. And she said, "I have brought forth a man with the help of Yahweh." 5
2 And she continued to bear his brother, Abel. Now Abel kept flocks and Cain worked the soil.
3 And in the course of days Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering for Yahweh,
4 but Abel brought the fatty portions from the first-born of his flock and some of their fat as well and Yahweh showed favor to Abel and his offering.
5 But on Cain and his offering he did not show favor, so Cain was very angry and his face was downcast.
6 Then Yahweh said to Cain, "Why are you angry and why is your face downcast?
7 If you do rightly, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do rightly, is not sin crouching at the door? It desires you, but you must master it."
8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "[Let us go into the field.]" And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.
9 And Yahweh said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" And he replied, "I know not. Am I my brother's keeper?"
10 And he said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.
11 Now you are cursed by the ground that has opened her mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
12 When you work the ground she will no longer yield to you her crops. You will be restless and wandering over the earth."
13 And Cain said to Yahweh, "My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 See! You drive me today from the face of the land, and from your presence I will be hidden, and I will be restless and wandering over the earth, and every one who finds me will kill me."
15 But Yahweh said to him, "Very well; 6 if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times greater." Then Yahweh put a mark on Cain, so that anyone who found him would not kill him.
16 So Cain went out from the presence of Yahweh and he lived in the land of Nod, 7 east of Eden.


17 Cain had knowledge of his wife, and she became pregnant and bore Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And to Enoch was born Irad, and Irad fathered Mehujael, and Mehujael fathered Methushael, and Methushael fathered Lamech.
19 Lamech married two women: the name of the first was Adah and the name of the second was Zillah
20 Adah bore Jabal: he was the father of all those who live in tents and raise livestock.
21 And the name of his brother was Jubal: he was the father of all those who play the harp and the flute.
22 And Zillah also bore Tubal-Cain who forged every kind of tool from bronze and iron. And the sister of Tubal-Cain was Naamah.
23 And Lamech said to his wives:
"Adah and Zillah, listen to my voice,
wives of Lamech, hear my word:
For I killed a man for wounding me,
a youth for injuring me.
24
If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech [is avenged] seventy-seven times."
25 And Adam again had knowledge of his wife, and she bore a son and she called his name Seth, 8 "for God has granted me other offspring in place of Abel, since Cain killed him."
26 And to Seth was also born a son, and he called his name Enosh. Then he began to call on the name of Yahweh

[Papewaio]

“We have also arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.”

The story of Adam and Eve relates to this in that it is primarily a morality tale about easily gained knowledge sans effort.

The story also relates to Summerian tales as well.

As for the Big Bang... the matter did not exist before it. Neither the matter, energy, space or time existed. In all likely hood the Big Bang also defined in its start what the laws of physics would be for this universe. So even the laws of physics are not considered to have existed in their current set prior to the Big Bang.