Elephants: Balanced or not?

[Megalos]

Just thought I'd post this after playing with some elephants today for the first time in EB.

In my opinion they are way under powered now, as Javelin throwers take them down too easily.

It amazes me that you can hurl a crap load of javelins into a low armoured 240 man phalanx and take down maybe one guy if you are lucky, and another time throw a smaller amount of javelins and basically enter the elephant on 'the worlds most endangered species list' 2500 years before they are supposed to be there.

Add to this the enormous cost of the things, and I ask myself are they worth it? The conclusion: are they heck as like.

So if elephants were really this expensive to upkeep and so easy to take down, what the hell was Hannibal doing marching them from N Africa, to Spain, through S Gaul, all over the Alps (the long route) and finally into battle against the Romans, when he could have taken a shorter route with his men and left the damn things at home?

(note: approx 3/4 of the elephants died en route, but it's said that Hannibal, placing so much faith in them, was still overjoyed at so many being still alive on the east side of the alps, when marching into N Italy).

Why go to all this effort, for "walking sheesh kebabs"?
Why was Hannibal so happy that a quart were still alive? (unless he had some weird elephant fetish or something)
Why does the elephant always come to mind when talking about Hannibal?
I'm not entirely sure on this, but I thought that Hannibals legendary elephants, struck fear into Roman hearts...

Something just doesn't add up here...

Please discuss

[Danest]

Specialty unit, I think. Much like you keep cavalry away from the front of a phalanx, keep elephants way, way away from skirmishers. I'm pretty happy though with what elephants can do when they crash through most units, especially low-morale units - it's impressive. Though, like cavalry, they are a little more vulnerable when they lose momentum inside of a heavy infantry unit with a strong morale, I guess. I'm trying to remember, weren't elephants eventually considered almost obsolete in history, once the Romans or whoever figured out how to fight them?

[Sarcasm]

Just thought I'd post this after playing with some elephants today for the first time in EB.

In my opinion they are way under powered now, as Javelin throwers take them down too easily.

It amazes me that you can hurl a crap load of javelins into a low armoured 240 man phalanx and take down maybe one guy if you are lucky, and another time throw a smaller amount of javelins and basically enter the elephant on 'the worlds most endangered species list' 2500 years before they are supposed to be there.

Add to this the enormous cost of the things, and I ask myself are they worth it? The conclusion: are they heck as like.

So if elephants were really this expensive to upkeep and so easy to take down, what the hell was Hannibal doing marching them from N Africa, to Spain, through S Gaul, all over the Alps (the long route) and finally into battle against the Romans, when he could have taken a shorter route with his men and left the damn things at home?

(note: approx 3/4 of the elephants died en route, but it's said that Hannibal, placing so much faith in them, was still overjoyed at so many being still alive on the east side of the alps, when marching into N Italy).

Why go to all this effort, for "walking sheesh kebabs"?
Why was Hannibal so happy that a quart were still alive? (unless he had some weird elephant fetish or something)
Why does the elephant always come to mind when talking about Hannibal?
I'm not entirely sure on this, but I thought that Hannibals legendary elephants, struck fear into Roman hearts...

Something just doesn't add up here...

Please discuss

As far as I know, there's some balancing to do regarding the defensive abilities of the elephants. I wouldn't hold my breath for more attack power, though.

In history, elephants were generally only really effective when the opposing army didn't know how to deal with them. The romans seemed to need at least one battle per generation to enable them to deal with the animals. They also seemed to have their uses in disrupting enemy cavalry charges, as battles between the Sucessor states seemed to indicate.

They seem to gradually loose their importance in the West and Near East, seem to become increasingly hard to get, and ultimately dissapear alltogether from these battlefields. However in India and the in Southeast Asia, they remained a valuable weapon well into the 17th century.

BTW, Hannibal was not famous for actually using the elephants; as you said most of them died in the trip, and they never seem to have that much value in the earlier battles. What he was famous for was, the actual trip itself- the Alps were exceedingly difficult to cross in the winter, let alone in hostile territory (it was Celtic country after all), *and* on top of that, bring elephants along with him.

[Steppe Merc]

I'm trying to remember, weren't elephants eventually considered almost obsolete in history, once the Romans or whoever figured out how to fight them?

Not really. I mean when the Romans fought the Sassanians, they were scared of the Elephants, mainly because the Romans had a few hundred years to forget about them.

But elephants need heavy protection. Horse archers or horse javilen men can destroy them, like they did in history. You just shoot the elepants till there dead, and there really too slow to catch up.

[QwertyMIDX]

You don't even usally have to kill them, just hurt them enough that they stop letting their manhout order them around.

Anyway, they have a ton of attack power, and they scare enemy units. In the next build they'll be a bit hardier too, but they're not tanks.

[GMT]

You don't even usally have to kill them, just hurt them enough that they stop letting their manhout order them around.

Anyway, they have a ton of attack power, and they scare enemy units. In the next build they'll be a bit hardier too, but they're not tanks.

I usually try to rout them so they wreak havoc on the enemy's lines

I noticed some kind of bug though.. I think.

According to my in game experience there doesn't seem to be much (if any) difference between war elephants and armored elephants.

They die just as easily but they cost a shitload more. They also look identical on the battlemap I think.


GMT

[LorDBulA]

Elephants are worth they weight in gold.
I would give kingdom for one unit of this beasts in my Gatai campaigne.
Just keep them away from skirmishers and watch havoc they cause in enemy ranks.
Non the less they should be a bit more resistent to javelin fire, but only a small bit.

[Megalos]

Having read what you gentlemen have wrote, I have reached this conclusion:

Normal Elephants (unarmoured)- Have the correct stats, however their upkeep cost seems to be a bit exaggerated, as the cost of housing and feeding them would not be that great (how much did a bale of hay cost in ancient times?), and only their handlers would require any pay from the army.
Their recruitment cost seems to be right though, I can't imagine they were all that common.

Armoured Elephants- Stats seem to indicate they are not correct, as it would be almost impossible to penetrate the armour even with a well aimed javelin (in my opinion. look at well armoured troops ingame). Upkeep and recruitment costs could do with a little rise (cost of armour etc etc), to balance things out should the EB team decide to implement these suggestions in game.

Just my thoughts

Please discuss some more

[Geoffrey S]

As said, keep them away from skirmishers. When possible, charge the line with elephants and send in heavy infantry or some form of cavalry to follow up and exploit the temporary chaos. As always using various types of units in support of each other vastly increases their usefulness.

Hannibal's elephants were reportedly very useful when crossing the Alps; they may have held up the line, but they did dissuade the tribes from attacking the army column wherever the elephants were located due to their unfamiliarity with such creatures.

Besides, elephants did need to be well-trained for battle. See what happened when Hannibal took to the field with a large force of newly trained elephants at Zama, and that then they were more of a liability than a boon.

[tk-421]

Elephants were really overpowered in RTW and RTR, but now I think that are underpowered. Keeping them away from skirmishers is good against some armies, but when fighting Romans they can't be used at all. They get shot up too easily by the legionaries. I really think they should be a little tougher to kill, not a lot, but a little.

[BigTex]

Maybe a bit off topic but, a question. In my Carthage campaign i am unable to recruit anything but forest elephants , and only those in a few provinces. It's 242 bc and i have lvl 5 baracks in most of my African provinces. Is there some type of reform that needs to happen to get them (I've seen something called a nietos reform in the barracks description window) or has the ability to recruit them not been implimented yet.

Btw great mod, finally nice to see Carthiginian cavalry that is better then Roman.

[QwertyMIDX]

The only elephants in that part of Africa are forest elephants. You'll have to go somewhere else if you want other elephants.

[Slider6977]

I agree they are somewhat underpowered. Playing mostly Carthage campaigns I obviously have a lot of experience using them. They are ok in melee, and if you are stupid and try to run down skirmisher cavalry with them, then yes you will get them killed pretty easily. I have been smart about using them so far, but even so, I do believe they get killed too easily. Whenever I have used them it was usually to either drive through infantry followed by an instant cavalry charge, or prolonged melee with cavalry, in which they are at their best. Like I said, they are ok in melee, but can take quite a few casualties simply from a prolonged melee with infantry (which most of the time has been simply skirmishers for me). And when in melee with these skirmisher units, and they decide (as they do alot) to launch their missles while engage, they can kill half my elephants in one throw.

Personally I think the Hit points should be at least increased a couple. As for now, the bang is not completely worth the buck.

Maybe a bit off topic but, a question. In my Carthage campaign i am unable to recruit anything but forest elephants , and only those in a few provinces. It's 242 bc and i have lvl 5 baracks in most of my African provinces. Is there some type of reform that needs to happen to get them (I've seen something called a nietos reform in the barracks description window) or has the ability to recruit them not been implimented yet.

Btw great mod, finally nice to see Carthiginian cavalry that is better then Roman.

The only elephants in that part of Africa are forest elephants. You'll have to go somewhere else if you want other elephants.

Then my question is this, why even have the Elephant Resource in Carthage and other Carthaginian provinces if you are not going to be able to recruit any elephant units?

[EdwardL]

Currently from what i recall, elephants in EB run on average 4 HPS, whereas in RTW vanilla, they were 12 for forest and 15 for war and armoured ele's.. i like to see a comprimise between the numbers in the neighborhood of 8-9. I mean its embarrasing that i can make 3 units of war elephants go down like a sack of potatos with 1 unit of conscript militia skirmishers on VH difficulty. Very ironic that a unit of potion drinking -armorless- naked men can manage to outfight being surrounded by respectable infantry, whereas in kind a behemoth of a creature armored from head to toe has to have the planets align for it to be effective. If my comrade in battle is taking the brunt of a Gasetae fighter from the front, and i thrust my sword into his bareskinned back and it goes through his chest, and then i yank my blade to one side.. it dont care if the guy's on PCP... he's going to feel that!

[BigTex]

Thanks for the response. Then were are the recruitment area's for African Bush war and armored elephants located at?

[LordElrond]

It seems that when I play on huge, the numbers of peltastai and akonstitai and 'javelineers' increase dramatically compared to the elephant units. They have like 240 men against like 15 elephants or so. I understand that they will be balanced more in coming versions, but I'm just trying to reinforce the fact that they shouldn't be killed off by just one volley from one unit of skirmishers.

BTW: Isn't there a topic like this on the twcenter forum too?

[QwertyMIDX]

Yes, they'll be a bit tougher in the next build.

African Bush Elephants are avaiable in the Ethiopia/Nubia/Upper Nile area, but they aren't very good. While they are the biggest and strongest of Elephants in the game they're the least predictable and will route or run amok much more easily than Forest or Indian. Indian are the way to go really.

[Ludens]

Then my question is this, why even have the Elephant Resource in Carthage and other Carthaginian provinces if you are not going to be able to recruit any elephant units?

Er... Like previous posts indicated, forest elephants are available in Carthage, just not the other elephant types.

[BigTex]

I find that elephants are better suited to staying behind your main battle line. Then just punch through a weak point once you've engaged them and let your reserve fold around their flanks in. If you can also use your cavalry then to hit their rear and slaughter them. If you do use them on your flanks or relatively isolated keep light cavalry near or mix some light infantry (like iberii caetratii) in loose formation with the elephants.

[Megalos]

To be honest I'd rather go for one hundred sacred band cavalry- cheaper and pack more punch and killing power...

Elephants as they are, are redundant...

[fallen851]

"You don't even usally have to kill them, just hurt them enough that they stop letting their manhout order them around.

Anyway, they have a ton of attack power, and they scare enemy units. In the next build they'll be a bit hardier too, but they're not tanks."

...This is incorrect. An animal will always listen to you, unlike humans. I ride horses, and have trained plenty of animals.

My point is that a horse (or any other animal) can be steered into a poll, into another horse, you can tell it to jump something that it knows it won't make it over but it wil try, they will do anything (they will stop if they don't think the ground is stable however, thats why they have trouble walking over crosswalks [they think they are bars with holes inbetween] and won't step on humans) as long they trust you.

It is far more likely that the manhout loses control and tells the elephant to run amok, than the elephant actually gets scared enough to run.

Why is this? Why can you get an animal to do almost anything for you when riding them? You train discipline, and a disciplined animal will follow your lead. Otherwise we wouldn't have elephants in the circus, as if anything spooked them or hurt them, they would run amok, which is not the case.

Now you could point to the times when elephants have "run amok" but that is because thay have been improperly trained, or do not trust their trainer. There is a lot of variables here, but my Fresian horse will do whatever I tell him to, because he trusts me.

Thus if elephants were to be realistic, they would only break when presented with enough firepower to kill/disable the manhout. But otherwise, they would do whatever the manhout (if their is proper trust) tells the elephant to do.

[QwertyMIDX]

You've made this argument before, it's disputed by a ton of military historians as well as plenty of ancient sources in a lot of contexts, and frankly I don't buy it. Animals aren't machines, despite the ideas you put forward in your car analogy.

[Steppe Merc]

You can train an animal extremely well, but any animal, just like a human has a breaking point. And they are smart animals, when they feel pain, they don't like it (all animals, that is).

[EdwardL]

omited

[Malrubius]

I think the thing is, that lightly-armoured skirmishers have a looser formation and can get out of the way easier than tightly-packed legionaries. They're not standing up to the charge or something.

As for animals always obeying when properly trained, we know from real life that when under pressure they may forget their training and go back to their instincts, just like people. They may not always be perfectly trained, either.

[O'ETAIPOS]

I supported, and still support fallen851 point, as far as he mention horses. Elephants on the other hand are quite smart, and will behave more like human and try to escape from danger. The different thing is running amok. This is, I think wrongly represented - elephants running amock should attack and try to kill everybody, not run away, as in this state ele are acting as mad killing machines (sth like berserkers). Eleph. should either run away OR run amock in battle situation.

[Ludens]

...This is incorrect. An animal will always listen to you, unlike humans. I ride horses, and have trained plenty of animals.

My point is that a horse (or any other animal) can be steered into a poll, into another horse, you can tell it to jump something that it knows it won't make it over but it wil try, they will do anything (they will stop if they don't think the ground is stable however, thats why they have trouble walking over crosswalks [they think they are bars with holes inbetween] and won't step on humans) as long they trust you.

So you can ride a tame, domesticated animal against a pole into a training yard. Okay, I can believe that. However, from this it does not necesarily follow that an undomesticated, barely tamed (as most elephants were not bred in captivity, probably because of the food bill) animal will obey its master in the middle of a noisy, chaotic, bloody (the smell of blood is reported to terrify elephants) battlefield when it is being pelted with arrows, stones and javelins.

[Steppe Merc]

Hey, horses are quite smart O'ETAIPOS. My mom works with mistreated horses, and they are certaintly smart enough to not trust people for a long time after being starved and beaten.

[Slider6977]

Er... Like previous posts indicated, forest elephants are available in Carthage, just not the other elephant types.

Er... No. Forest Elephants CAN'T be recruited in Carthage, like my previous post indicated.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Hey, horses are quite smart O'ETAIPOS. My mom works with mistreated horses, and they are certaintly smart enough to not trust people for a long time after being starved and beaten.

try to beat or starve elephant - he will simply kill you!