Includes America and Azteks? Huh?

[katar]

a knight in armour versus a dude wearing feathers and carrying a stone edged club....

sounds like a load of !&*$!

[Xardas]

Gah!
But it'll look stupid, if European ships would cross the Atlantics so easily(As I think so). Moreover, as we all know, american indians, and aztecs, maya, incas e.t.c. didn't have no steel, nor horses, nor gunpowder.
That's why they have no chance against the Old World. And even speaking about the Aztecs conquering Europe is stupid.
Aztecs will flee if (they see horses, they hear steel armor and swords, they smell gunpowder).
P.S.
Historically, they resisted. About 300,000 against 300 Cortez's men. And they lost...their culture destroyed...

P.S.S.
They must be weak! The game is made not to retell the history, but it's up for us to change it.
Confidentially, I'd like to conquer the world controling England, by Edward The Black Prince, in 1356. :)

[Gurkhal]

Historically, they resisted. About 300,000 against 300 Cortez's men. And they lost...their culture destroyed...

I think you forgot that the Spanish were also backed up by some 200 000 allied warriors from local tribes.

[AquaLurker]

I think you forgot that the Spanish were also backed up by some 200 000 allied warriors from local tribes.

And diease introduce by the spanish...

[Sykotyk Rampage]

Hi all humour for your evening.......



Again you make the Medieval Europeans into supermen able to race across oceans in a single bound, faster than a speeding atlatl.

People had sailed the oceans for centuries already.

The Aztecs weapons were much harder than the Spanish armour, weapons, and bullets. The obsidian is so hard it would cut through the steal of the Spanish. The Aztecs were very technological advanced; again you are comparing apples to oranges.

The Aztecs faced an uprising of hundreds of thousands of people, along with the Spanish. It was disease and riot that destroyed the Aztecs not a Spanish bullet.

Central America is exactly what was important in the 16th century not Europe, not Asia. Ca has covered that ground thank some god they have imagination and are able to expand their horizons past MTW1 or else we would all be complaining how CA is just remaking the wheel but prettier.

Bring 'em on CA cause no Moor, Spaniard or Aztec is going to stop me and my Scots from building a villa on the coast of the Mediterranean. Cause I am rewriting history just because I can. And when I am done I am going to rewrite it in a different way…..

because I can and then I am getting a history book and rewriting the finding of a route to India by Malcolm McCabe the 3rd and his 3 Scottish ships the Heather, the Breandan, the Caointiorn. If you guys don't want the chocolate and coffee I'll take it all, Cause there is nothing better to entice the fair maidens than chocolate and keep them coming back for caffeine......LOL

[Voigtkampf]

Lads, you should concentrate less on the confrontation and more on the topic.


Discuss the game from the point of gameplay, but also restrain from comments like “those that insist on historical accuracy should go and read books instead playing this game”.

Now, to express my thoughts…

Medieval times are not a sole property of European and Asian countries, but the lands that you see when you start up a game of MTW have been the most important for the development of the world as we know it today.

I love and pay lots of respect to Australian aborigines or American Indians or Micronesian tribes, but that doesn’t mean I want them in the game called Medieval: Total War.

I am also not interested in fictional possibilities or the fact that someone somewhere has sailed to continent X before the mean ol’ Europeans did that.

I would love to see more factions from east, south and north of Europe being introduced, as well as from Asia, instead of introducing Aztecs that will probably appear at the very end of the game and will hardly improve the gameplay itself in any manner.

[Bob the Insane]

I have to admit that I really don't get what the problem is.

In reality the Aztecs were conquored by a european faction (with lots of local help by the looks of things) during the time period of the game.

It is entirely appropriate to include this in the later period of a Medieval game that is essentially about war and conquest...

How could a player of the Spainish faction guide his nation with faithful adhereance to RL history without the ability to explore and plunder central America during the closing portion of the game?

To be honest I would not be bothered if this feature was not available and I quite agree the resources could have been better spent detailing the european (especially the eastern european) factions.

But arguing that it is unrealistic or inappropriate to include an event which in reality had a definate impact on europe within the timeframe of the game is simply wrong.

[AquaLurker]

CA is trying a new concept for their games, can't say I am excited about the "Aztec idea" but its definately an interesting concept. Its hard to judge if this is a good move and we can flame the idea as much as we want but it may just turn out right. Coincidentally...my TV is showing a doc on Aztec right now

[Trax]

Historically, they resisted. About 300,000 against 300 Cortez's men. And they lost...their culture destroyed...

IIRc Cortes had ca 1500 soldiers and tens of thousands of local allies.

[Sykotyk Rampage]

Actually Cortez on November 8th 1519 had only around 450 men when he entered Tenochtitlan, the Aztec capital. He had already conquered numerous tribes along the coast and interior. Killing 10,000's along the way. But only losing 50 to 100 men, and that is mostly to the jungles perils.

This is the famous incident where he left 200 men at the capitol then marched back to the coast captured the Spanish commander that was sent to arrest him for insubordination. He promised the troops gold and riches, returned to the capitol only to find it in the midst of battle. After days of fighting the Spanish retreated back to their ally’s lands.

The next year -1521 -Cortez returned, siege the capitol and after three months of a siege, he razed it to the ground killing anywhere from 40 to 100,000 Aztecs. Of course some were already deceased due to the siege conditions.

That was the end of the great Aztec empire and the beginning of a new age for the Spanish, Americas and Europe. War, Riches, Conquest. If huge battles, sieges, riches and glory are not fun, then I don’t know what is…I can't wait. Because from 1490's through to 1525 it is the path to the renaissance and the glory of the new world.

I think “me” Scots are giving up the villa in Spain and building a beach resort in the Caribbean islands, setting up a cruise caravel line and offering vacation time shares to the rest of Europe.

Come traverse the new ocean with Scots Sea Cruise,
Adventure unbounded
A strange land inhabited by even stranger people
Pearl white beaches, deep jungles, green seas

Sit on the beach and enjoy the sunset while being served by exotic wenches

All-inclusive: 12500 gold pieces 3 year round trip.

Taking bookings now for the November 2006/2009 season

[Xardas]

Read some history books Mr. Tallinn. 300 men of Cortez sailed to America, not only warriors, but all together. He had support from Cuba. But in the Battle Of Tenochitlan he had 300 men and the Tlakskala tribes as his allies. There're hundreds of stories telling that 16 Conquistadors defeated hundreds of Aztecs. Again, Aztecs had wooden swords with rocks in 'em. Thay had no metal at all. And thus, no armor.

P.S.
Talking about the game, it would be much better expanding the map to the south and east...

[NodachiSam]

Good post, voigtkampf



I know if I find the Aztecs annoying I'll just mod them out. I really don't know why they didn't just go further east with the map. Maybe even to India.

[sephodwyrm]

If they include the Americas and Azteks, they should include naval battles.

[Bob the Insane]

If they include the Americas and Azteks, they should include naval battles.

Beacuse of all the large naval battles between the Spainish and the Aztecs?

[Sykotyk Rampage]

ya 100's of reed boats crushing the Spanish armada....conquering Spain, King Montezuma wishes to sacrifice Europeans to the gods.

Must build more reed boats.

edit: I am being serious, I hope CA lets me build thousands of reed boats and sail, like the polynesians in the Pacific, to invade Spain, best defence is the best offence....or something like that...lol

[dagiz]

well considering that the "new world" was discovered before the ending of the game and was really a huge deal, I have no issues with it being in the game.

global colonization really started to pick up after that, at least I think it did. And there is no arguement that a handful of men in armor could handle the aztecs, but what makes it interesting is that there will be huge numbers of aztec warriors coming at you. as you play - I would want to see if I could duplicate what cortez did (minus the disease) and take on about the entire empire with only 300 or so men.

either way, it should be interesting.

[Servius]

The Aztecs were a joke. Still fighting with pointy sticks, sharp rocks...they never even made it to the bronze age, and they're supposed to pose a credible challenge to rifles, heavy cavalry, war galleons...oh, that's right, they didn't.

I'm not sure what the point is. The Aztecs in the middle ages had the military technology of the britons in Roman times. If they wanted to link in a semi-formidable foreign chalenge, Japan anyone? MTW+STW ftw!!!

[Voigtkampf]

I'm not sure what the point is. The Aztecs in the middle ages had the military technology of the britons in Roman times. If they wanted to link in a semi-formidable foreign chalenge, Japan anyone? MTW+STW ftw!!!

In words of cool, logical Vulcans: "That would be agreeable."

[Akka]

The Aztecs weapons were much harder than the Spanish armour, weapons, and bullets. The obsidian is so hard it would cut through the steal of the Spanish. The Aztecs were very technological advanced; again you are comparing apples to oranges.

Really...

[Sykotyk Rampage]

Really.......yes

[pyradyn]

The aztecs were a big problem for the spanish they were not push overs and they may not have had steel but sharpend obsidion is good enough to kill a man. Plus mexico which i am in atm is full of jungles name the last Tropical Jungle battle you had in a TW game? The only reason the spanish conqured them so fast is because of plague look at Americans trying to conqure the Apaches it took forever. The aztecs were the bigest empire in Mesmo-America and Mesmo-America is one of the most wanted areas at the time Europe was begging to run dry and boring but the Tropics and exotics of this land brings much wealth

[AntiochusIII]

Really.......yes

Erm...no.

The Aztecs, you see, have a little different concept of warfare than the Europeans. They'd rather capture prisoners than slaughter them all: after all, what about the Gods?

While the Spanish simply shoots 'em all "those savages."

And steel armor, Spanish steel armor, to be exact, CAN stop an obsidian attack. Some later armors could stop bullets, dammit.

pyradyn: you have misconceptions about the history in this hemisphere. The natives who met the Spanish never stood a chance in realistic terms. In the best of luck, they might defeat an expedition or two by sheer overwhelming number in ambush--a luxury the Aztecs never afforded. But Spain, you see, was militarily powerful, even in European terms. So it's like "pwnage." Now, I didn't even count the dastardly genocidal germs into the equation.

The reason the Apaches had been so successful is because of their skillful strategy and bravery, and European horses and guns--introduced first by the Spanish--and the territories which are rugged and easy for many an ambush, and their nomadic nature similar to the old days which horse archers massacred slower, lumbering armies of the civilized kingdoms of the ancient world. Besides, they knew the Americans. They knew how to fight them. The Aztecs? ... don't.

They fought a guerrilla war. How can the Aztecs do that? Tenochtitlan was not ever-moving.

In other words, I am absolutely wary of the possible major historical inaccuracy ala Age of Conquerors (AOK II Expansion) in which my jaguar warrior, apparently armed with stone-age weapon, beat the Spanish conquistadors with guns to death. After all, why are they in there if they stood no chance whatsoever, like it was historically?

And if anyone want to bother use that old "we're creating our own history here" argument again, I have this to say: Hastings could've been a Saxon victory; Attila might've had Aetius' skull at Chalons; the Byzantine empire stood a chance at Manzikert, or even against the mighty Islamic tide in the early days; and even Thermopylae might've been won by some brilliant luck or strategy. But guess what? The native Americans never stood a chance. And why would I want to fight in-game someone that never stood a chance of even scratching me?

The New World Discovery was a Renaissance event onwards, NOT a Medieval event. It's a world apart.

[Sykotyk Rampage]

Well thank you for your input Antiochusiii but please let me give you my theory……..mmmmm did I tell you I have a theory.....mmmmm it is my theory......hummm yes a theory...ammmhum

Point 1

The Europeans did as the Aztecs; slaughter, capture, crucify, and eradicate whole cities and civilizations in the name of their god. They also did over the millenniums capture for slavery, games, torture, and yes sacrifice in the name of god and deities. It was the different style of individual warrior battle that was the Mexica’s downfall, and the suppression of tribes that caused them to rebel, small pox, starvation, not Spanish guns and technology. I think diplomacy could be used also.

So the juxtaposition of European warfare and Aztec is the same albeit with different technologies.

The Spanish actually did not shoot that many “savages”. They did not have the resources –supplies- to just slaughter and shoot every “savage”. They were only savages to the Europeans. The Mexica’s (which is the name they called themselves) were very advanced and had the same technologies;

Architecture that rivaled Rome, and Egypt’s pyramids, agriculture, crop rotation, advanced cultivation, fertilization, irrigation, livestock farms, fish farms, mathematics and a measurement system much like the metric system of today, linguistics, trade, writing, philosophy, astronomy, a calendar system that was as accurate as the one we use now, performing arts, music, culture, sculpture, population that rivaled the capitals of Europe, aqueducts, latrines in buildings, garbage collection, “factories”, merchant markets, public baths, public schools, roads, a system of communications the list goes on and on….

In my view this was not a “savage society”, they were only savage because they did not follow the Christian religion and for this they were persecuted for their religious believes. North American Aboriginals and the South American Aboriginals were also forced into religious slavery.

The Spanish befriended 100,000’s of the “new” civilizations, years before they even advanced to Tenochtitlan. In the Central Americas there were millions of people, over 100,000’s in the capital cities (Tenochtitlan was a conglomerate of many cities) alone. Of which Tenochtitlan had anywhere from 100,000 to 200,000. Just this city alone is larger than most of the European major cities at the time. By 1580 disease, small pox, typhus had reduced the population of the Americas by more then 80%.

So if the Spanish had 1,000,000 rounds of ammunition with them I guess they simply could have “shot all those savages”.

Point 2

Well actually obsidian on the Mohs hardness scale ranges from 5 to 5.5 and has been found in some areas of Mexico to 6. Spanish steel from 500 years ago well advanced for its day because of cold tempering, (heating to blue cooling instantly then heating and cooling repeatedly) rates 4 to 5.5 on the Mohs scale. The blades of the macquahuitl -“swords”, tepoztopilli -“spears”, arrows. Atlatls –“throwing darts” were well documented as having pierced the armour of the Spanish. Again it was not the Spanish that did the fighting but disease, rebellion, starvation, diplomacy.

Point3

Maybe the Aboriginals never stood a chance, but I am sure anxious to re-write history because it sure is going to be fun. This is why I play this game for the joy of creating my own history.

You are entitled to your own theories these just happen to be mine and mine alone…Ann Elk…mmmm I have a theory….hummmm …it is mine…did I tell you I have a theory.
(Note: Monty Python)

[Mithrandir]

Please stay on topic : Do you like the fact that Aztec are included,yes or no?

For thorough historical discussions, visit the Monastery on this same board.

Another reminder : Do not be sarcastic towards other members, we're running a flame-free,troll-free forum.Discuss the topic, show sources do not indulge in posts how silly someone is to think a certain thing just because he has other sources.

So back on topic:

I like it! No matter what history tells, it will bring diversity. And much more important : We dont even know whow they will be implemented right ? Whether they will be on the map,if they will only show up in historical battles etc.

-Mithrandir.

[Sykotyk Rampage]

Ok I agree, I like the aztecs, if you can't tell by all my absurd posts. Sorry for history rhetoric...lol

[Lord Adherbal]

I hope we won't be seeing the aztec faction in every other MP game. That'd seriously decrease the medieval atmosphere and realism. So they should atleast be seriously underpowered.

[Zenicetus]

And if anyone want to bother use that old "we're creating our own history here" argument again, I have this to say: Hastings could've been a Saxon victory; Attila might've had Aetius' skull at Chalons; the Byzantine empire stood a chance at Manzikert, or even against the mighty Islamic tide in the early days; and even Thermopylae might've been won by some brilliant luck or strategy. But guess what? The native Americans never stood a chance. And why would I want to fight in-game someone that never stood a chance of even scratching me?

I agree about the military imbalance. Cortez was very lucky, on many levels, to accomplish what he did as a first contact expedition. But even if he had failed, the end-result would have been the same. I do think CA will allow the Aztecs to "scratch you" in the game.... if only by sheer force of numbers, and maybe terrain benefits (attack bonus in jungles, maybe?).

However, I don't think this is really about fighting the Aztecs, but more about making the endgame strategy more complex and interesting. The faction that takes the New World will presumably gain a large economic/trade benefit. So, do you divert resources into a tech tree that allows you to make a grab for the New World yourself? Do you go out of your way to block a competitor before they get there? Can you afford *not* to take the riches of the New World, and still conquer Europe and the Med? In that sense, I think it will make for a fun endgame.

The only way this could be a negative, to my mind, is if CA rigs the campaign so that taking the New World is mandatory to win the game, instead of optional.

The New World Discovery was a Renaissance event onwards, NOT a Medieval event. It's a world apart.

Right, but as others have mentioned, this could also be a hook into a later expansion pack, with conflicts between European powers in the Caribbean/Central/South America.

Pirates of the Caribbean:Total War? :)

[Lord Adherbal]

The only way this could be a negative, to my mind, is if CA rigs the campaign so that taking the New World is mandatory to win the game, instead of optional.

and the fact that they're probably investing a lot of time into something that most of us don't like or don't care about. Time that could be invested in more important stuff such as polishing and unit balancing.

[Zenicetus]

and the fact that they're probably investing a lot of time into something that most of us don't like or don't care about. Time that could be invested in more important stuff such as polishing and unit balancing.

I don't know.... it's basically just a reskinned Barbarian faction, right? Nothing fancy like cavalry or artillery.

The one place where it will soak up resources will be in the terrain modeling (if they do it right), and that won't take away too much from other parts of the game, I don't think. The places where I'm personally hoping to see improvement are in areas like strategic and battlefield AI, better unit control, better diplomacy, etc. I don't think modeling some new Central American 3D terrain will take away from those elements. The guys doing AI programming usually aren't the same guys who are pushing pixels to build 3D models for a game.

[Sarmatian]

Aztecs were advanced nation but not in the military way. They don`t stand a chance against any european faction. Including aztecs would just hurt the atmosphere of the game. Expecially because the time when new world started to bring wealth and to boost the economy of spain is after the end of the game. Aztecs would bring more variety to the game, that is true, but if that is the only reason, we could include aliens too. We could say that the aliens (3 of them) landed in europe in 1530 with grand plans for conquest of earth and you have to stop them (using your numerical superiority) before they launch nuclear missiles and destroy everything. For all mankind!!!!!!!!