EB Animations Pack

[Tux]

Well the version for 1.5/6 had the pilum i just have forgoted to include it in the one for 1.2 but apart from icluding the pilum and some minor fixes there's nothing new in it, for now.
Ohh and the down link is in the main post, same links.

[aecp]

Hi,

First of all I want to thank you for your great work and for making the exra effort of making the new animations available before the upcoming patch.

I just have one question concerning the gladius animation. To me it looks as if the units using the gladius animation are holding the shield too low and too far from the body. While I've never held a scutum myself it looks as if it would create an unnessecary strain on the arm and shoulder. It also seems likely that the neck and shoulders of an infantryman would be more frequent targets than the legs below the knee and that it would therefore would be a good idea to hold your shield high. Furthermore I think that the main reason for making the shield semi-cylindrical would be for the soldier to take cover "within the shield" instead of holding it out in front of him. There's some archeological evidence for this as atleast one battle scene from Trajans column shows the legionnaries holding their shields close to their body, and those in the front ranks holding it high enough to protect their "leading" shoulder.

What do you think?

[SwordsMaster]

Hey, alin

I just decided to give the pack a try, but none of the links you provided for the dmb.txt file seem to be working. Which is a pity.

Hope you can sort this out.

Cheers

[Tux]

Hi,

First of all I want to thank you for your great work and for making the exra effort of making the new animations available before the upcoming patch.

I just have one question concerning the gladius animation. To me it looks as if the units using the gladius animation are holding the shield too low and too far from the body. While I've never held a scutum myself it looks as if it would create an unnessecary strain on the arm and shoulder. It also seems likely that the neck and shoulders of an infantryman would be more frequent targets than the legs below the knee and that it would therefore would be a good idea to hold your shield high. Furthermore I think that the main reason for making the shield semi-cylindrical would be for the soldier to take cover "within the shield" instead of holding it out in front of him. There's some archeological evidence for this as atleast one battle scene from Trajans column shows the legionnaries holding their shields close to their body, and those in the front ranks holding it high enough to protect their "leading" shoulder.

What do you think?

I'll consider that but i agree with you that the shield and gladius are to low. The problem is not only the animation but also the models so i'll have to see how can i cahnge the animations and the models to get the optimal and most acurate position. Thnaks for the suggestions and don't worry, i will take care of applying them.

Hey, alin
I just decided to give the pack a try, but none of the links you provided for the dmb.txt file seem to be working. Which is a pity.

Hope you can sort this out.

Cheers

Well since i updated that file and it's atachement at twc the licks were changed, only the one from the main post is good:link

[SwordsMaster]

Well since i updated that file and it's atachement at twc the licks were changed, only the one from the main post is good

That one worked. Thanks

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hi,

First of all I want to thank you for your great work and for making the exra effort of making the new animations available before the upcoming patch.

I just have one question concerning the gladius animation. To me it looks as if the units using the gladius animation are holding the shield too low and too far from the body. While I've never held a scutum myself it looks as if it would create an unnessecary strain on the arm and shoulder. It also seems likely that the neck and shoulders of an infantryman would be more frequent targets than the legs below the knee and that it would therefore would be a good idea to hold your shield high. Furthermore I think that the main reason for making the shield semi-cylindrical would be for the soldier to take cover "within the shield" instead of holding it out in front of him. There's some archeological evidence for this as atleast one battle scene from Trajans column shows the legionnaries holding their shields close to their body, and those in the front ranks holding it high enough to protect their "leading" shoulder.

What do you think?

First, I think its important to note that the Imperial scutum was more mobile than any Republican version. So scenes of Trajan's collum are maybe a little unreliable for our period.

Second, I've had several conversations about this with a very knowledgable re-enactor (The Military Archaeologist I mentioned before.) He said that given the shoulder doublings on all types of Lorica, including Segmentata and the wieght and awkward nature of lifting the shield he thinks that it would have been held with the arm straight down and a little away from the body. He also notes theat the legs and lower body are the bits the Romans didn't armour.

Third, the Republican Scutum would have covered more or less the whole body this way.

Fourth, hiding your feet behind your shield gives you that extra split second because your enemy doesn't know when you are going to lunge.

I would suggest that the soldier should stand almost side on with his left arm fully extened downwards. and around 15-20 degrees out from the body, his sword arm back and ready to lunge. The Scutum's curve allows it to protect the side and front-left of the body without taking up too much space. A soldier would either have to parry blows to his right side or rely on his neighbour. Which is what the Romans did.

If this is how you have it I appologize but I've been mainly playing Makedonians so far. I should point out that while I know you can hold this position with the Imperial Scutum it might well be harder with the Republic version, but then I'm not that strong by soldier's standards.

[aecp]

I'll consider that but i agree with you that the shield and gladius are to low. The problem is not only the animation but also the models so i'll have to see how can i cahnge the animations and the models to get the optimal and most acurate position. Thnaks for the suggestions and don't worry, i will take care of applying them.

Great to hear!

First, I think its important to note that the Imperial scutum was more mobile than any Republican version. So scenes of Trajan's collum are maybe a little unreliable for our period.

Second, I've had several conversations about this with a very knowledgable re-enactor (The Military Archaeologist I mentioned before.) He said that given the shoulder doublings on all types of Lorica, including Segmentata and the wieght and awkward nature of lifting the shield he thinks that it would have been held with the arm straight down and a little away from the body. He also notes theat the legs and lower body are the bits the Romans didn't armour.

Third, the Republican Scutum would have covered more or less the whole body this way.

Fourth, hiding your feet behind your shield gives you that extra split second because your enemy doesn't know when you are going to lunge.

I would suggest that the soldier should stand almost side on with his left arm fully extened downwards. and around 15-20 degrees out from the body, his sword arm back and ready to lunge. The Scutum's curve allows it to protect the side and front-left of the body without taking up too much space. A soldier would either have to parry blows to his right side or rely on his neighbour. Which is what the Romans did.

If this is how you have it I appologize but I've been mainly playing Makedonians so far. I should point out that while I know you can hold this position with the Imperial Scutum it might well be harder with the Republic version, but then I'm not that strong by soldier's standards.

The difference between the imperial and republican scutum could explain different methods of usage. Unfortunately all the depictions I've seen myself that are relevant to this topic have been from the imperial period (the Adamklissi metopes, Trajan's column and reliefs from the fortress at Mainz, to be more specific).

As for your second argument I think there's no doubt that your friend is infinitely more knowledgeable than I am on this topic as I am neither an expert nor have I ever taken part in any reenactment.

With that said, I still think that the way of holding the shield that you propose seems a bit awkward in some asoects. First of all I think that keeping your arm fully extended would create more of a strain on the joints of the elbow and shoulder. If you instead kept your arm slightly bent the weight would instead be focused on the muscles of the arm. I think that the same goes for holding the shield 15-20 degrees from your body, which I think would strain the wrist.

To summarize I think that you make a very good case for republican troops holding the shield quite low, even if I still think that it looks a bit awkward in-game. It would be intresting if you played just a custom game as the romans so that you could comment on how well you think that the current animations correspond to your theories and your friends experiences.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I beg your pardon, I mispoke slightly before, 10-15 degrees would be more than enough, basically enough to cover your feet and have the shiled out from your body slightly so that blows to the top wouldn't connect with your armour.

Try this, get any weight and hold it in your left hand with your arm our straight but braced, then try the same with the arm slightly bent. Having your arm bent will strain the joints and your forarm. Think about it, gravity pulls straight down. If you bend your arm the forces get all screwed up. You might also find it harder to recieve blows.

[Arman616]

Hi,
any more updates in it besides the pilum, that it makes wourth the download?
Were is the downloadlink for the updated file?
Thx

yea, where is the link for the updated file? And thanks, alin.

[aecp]

I beg your pardon, I mispoke slightly before, 10-15 degrees would be more than enough, basically enough to cover your feet and have the shiled out from your body slightly so that blows to the top wouldn't connect with your armour.

Try this, get any weight and hold it in your left hand with your arm our straight but braced, then try the same with the arm slightly bent. Having your arm bent will strain the joints and your forarm. Think about it, gravity pulls straight down. If you bend your arm the forces get all screwed up. You might also find it harder to recieve blows.

I tried what you suggested with a 10 kg dumbbell (as that is atleast similar to the shield in weight and horizontal grip. I must say that holding the arm straight only felt comfortable when I held my arm sraight down the side of my upper body. The point of bending the arm is to activate the bicep in a higher degree and thus relieving the shoulder and elbow. Still, what you say might very well be correct, and I find it hard to argue against it as the only "evidence" I have is empirical and not at all specific to shields. I suppose the best way for me to find out would be to actually hold a scutum from the republican period. But finding one of those will not be easy where I live.

As it stands, I find it increasingly difficult to actually prove anything in this discussion since there seems to exist no evidence on this topic that is not conjectural (however well founded it may be).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, yes this is all supposition I will grant that your arm might be more strained if it was straight but I'm conerced that bending it slightly would effect stability when recieving blows, you may have apoint though. try this, instead of holding the arm straight have your forarm parralel to the ground and your upper arm at an angle so that your upper arm is what holds the shiled away from your body.

Actually that may have been how they did it, rather than a straight arm. That would give you stability but it would also put most of the strain of taking blows on your shoulder and upper arm. I could phone John if I could find his number but it really would be better if I could talk to him face to face with at least some form of scutum.

[Tux]

Very interesting discusion, i've read every word and it seems that we'll have to make 2 gladius skeleton, an imperial and an republican one, thanks aecp and Wigferth Ironwall for all the sugestions and data.
And here's the different stand ready positions the 2 different gladius skeletons shall look like:
Republican:
https://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4589/63zs.jpg
https://img211.imageshack.us/img211/9250/68mh.jpg
https://img208.imageshack.us/img208/373/63gm.jpg

Imperial:
https://img225.imageshack.us/img225/6376/40wu.jpg
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7568/62ba.jpg
https://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5834/58rt.jpg

Arman616 it's the same link, the links will not change unless the files get deleted wich i don't see hapening.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Maybe the Imperial guy should lean slightly less foward, I really don't like the way his foot sticks out under the shield. Alternativly you could have the shiled parralel to the ground, I think with it angled foward like that you might find it slightly harder recieving blows.

[aecp]

I think the new skeletons look terrific! Great work alin, and I must say that it is a joy to see a community where discussion is constructive and civil and feedback is appreciated.

[kkjbk]

Maybe the Imperial guy should lean slightly less foward, I really don't like the way his foot sticks out under the shield. Alternativly you could have the shiled parralel to the ground, I think with it angled foward like that you might find it slightly harder recieving blows.

The whole point of angling the sheild was to make it easier to recieve blows. Most of the 'barbarians' slashed with their swords, by angling the sheild forward like that the sword would be automatically pushed down leaving the attacker undefended and at a disadvantage for a split second. I think that it should stay as the picture shows.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Except that Decimus Flavius Fulvius there will get his foot sliced off, that was my point about recieving the blow, as you say, a deflected sword goes down. So his foot shouldn't be out, or he shouln't angle the shield.

[LorDBulA]

Shouldnt this soldiers hold shields a bit higher?
Especialy the rebublican ones, imperial is much better.
They forward leg is protected by armour, there is no point in keeping shield so low.
If i was this guy i would hold shield higher to protect my shoulder, upper torso and neck.

[Tux]

I think the new skeletons look terrific! Great work alin, and I must say that it is a joy to see a community where discussion is constructive and civil and feedback is appreciated.

Thanks well that's the main reason i released the new animations pack,for feedback, i've always wanted to start an animation suggestion thread and how would it have been better than to release an new animation pack with it.

Except that Decimus Flavius Fulvius there will get his foot sliced off, that was my point about recieving the blow, as you say, a deflected sword goes down. So his foot shouldn't be out, or he shouln't angle the shield.

Ok ok don't worry about that, i got your point and as the republican one has the foot safe after the shield so will the imperial one have, i just forgot to do that for the imperial one.

Shouldnt this soldiers hold shields a bit higher?
Especialy the rebublican ones, imperial is much better.
They forward leg is protected by armour, there is no point in keeping shield so low.
If i was this guy i would hold shield higher to protect my shoulder, upper torso and neck.

LorDBulA the fact is the republican scutum was 3kg heavier than the imperial one, as the roman fc's told me, so that's the reason why the shield is held so low, so no especialy the imperial ones should have the shield higher and not the republican.

[Tux]

gah double post

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ok ok don't worry about that, i got your point and as the republican one has the foot safe after the shield so will the imperial one have, i just forgot to do that for the imperial one.

That was more for kkjbk than you. If it makes you feel better the skinners are my next targets.

[hoom]

Could you show the republican animation with a republican shield?
The longer oval republican shield would probably not look so low with the same grip.

[Tux]

Could you show the republican animation with a republican shield?
The longer oval republican shield would probably not look so low with the same grip.

Will do, but now i'm really busy with all kind of stuff, when i manage to get some time for some modding I will post some screens with the progress.

[=E.T=]

Other animations in progress???

Tnx

:)

[Watchman]

Out of general curiosity, what't the difference between fs_thp_f_spearman and fs_thp_f_spearman_p ? Is the latter meant for use with the phalanx formation ?

[Tux]

Other animations in progress???

Tnx

:)

Apart from the gladius skeletons and an overhand for phalanx on wich i will start working soon there won't be any new animations, however after i'm done with that i will help ran no jidai with some new animations for some of their units but those animations won't be included in the eb pack.

Out of general curiosity, what't the difference between fs_thp_f_spearman and fs_thp_f_spearman_p ? Is the latter meant for use with the phalanx formation ?

Yes the other one, with "p" at the end, is for phalanx units.

[=E.T=]

[quote=alin]Apart from the gladius skeletons and an overhand for phalanx on which i will start working soon there won't be any new animations, however after I'm done with that i will help ran no jidai with some new animations for some of their units but those animations won't be included in the Eb pack.
quote]

Tnx for answer!

[Watchman]

I downloaded EB some days ago and can only tip my hat to the people working on it.

All I've done is root through the unit roster, and I've been simply fascinated by the sheer level of detail therein. Ten minutes spent in an utter failure to make heads or tails out of the EDB beyond the crude rudimentaries also gave me great respect for the sheer ingenuity and effort involved.

I've also become quite curious about it all, particularly some aspects of the animations, so if you folks don't mind too much I'll be pestering you about it for a while. How, for example, do the different-sized skeletons actually work ? Do they require a suitably sized model to work with, or could for example fs_fast_horse_small be used to create a "my little pony" out of the base light horse model ?

[Tux]

I've also become quite curious about it all, particularly some aspects of the animations, so if you folks don't mind too much I'll be pestering you about it for a while. How, for example, do the different-sized skeletons actually work ? Do they require a suitably sized model to work with, or could for example fs_fast_horse_small be used to create a "my little pony" out of the base light horse model ?

Yeah, that doesn't require any changes to the models what you have to set the scale in the dmb.txt, if you don't the model might look weird in game and will look skiny. So you just have to apply the sized skeleton to wich model you wan't and if you wan't to make him look skiny and tall you don't have to add the skeleton size in dmb.txt or if you kinda wan't to make the model fat and tall you should add the scale of the model in dmb.txt.

[Djurre]

Teutobod II try this:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/attac...tachmentid=558

Cybvep the flping bug is fixed, Vercingetorix fixed the problem with the exporter and hopfully tommorow i will upload the new anim pack.

Arman616 i agree with you there but still they shouldn't use just one attack, i must talk to those who helped me make the skeleton and see what kind of attacks were the ones wich were used more often.

it is still not working. i cant get RB to run anymore. wow, this animation pack really rocks ......

edit: ok, now i read stuff about a descr_ etc file. the instructions are unclear, what am i to do with this file? what map do i extract it too? and please dont bull**** me with stuff like "read again fool". im not a moron, if i knew how to do it, i wouldnt be wasting my time on irritating you guys.

thnx.

[Elthore]

the link to the axe crash fix doesnt work, how can i get eb to run after installing this pack?