Religious intolerance or freedom of speech.

[Papewaio]

A New Zealand newspaper has now printed the cartoons:

Paper prints Mohammed cartoons

New Zealand Federation of Islamic Associations president Javed Khan said the decision by The Dominion Post to publish the cartoons could have "serious repercussions" for New Zealand's economy.
The federation holds the national contract to certify meat slaughtered to traditional Islamic requirements.

"We won't call for a boycott, and we don't want to see one, but news gets around the world pretty quickly. Muslims will make their own decisions and as you know, they've taken drastic action against Denmark," he told the Dominion Post

[Adrian II]

Apparently, a lot of people are manifesting now. Much more than a couple hundred at least.

I was talking about Indonesia in response to the news agency story about protests at Danish establishments there.

In Gaza and the Westbank there have been massive demonstrations with tens of thousands of people burning Danish flags or calling for vengeance against European countries. What an exercise in futility.

Still, this row clearly originates with the leadership of some nations and organisations, not with the 'Arab street' as they call it.

[A.Saturnus]

This man makes me feel sick. He has no right to warn the newspapers about printing anything. It is none of his business and just shows the hubris of the man.

You´re mistaken, he has every right to do so. That's the whole point of it all.

I think it was important for the papers to show that they aren't afraid to print these. After all, if people hav the nominal right to free speech, but are scared to speak out on certain issues, that isn't really free speech.

Not important, essential!





Note: I'm not posting these to insult moslims. In fact, I consider them rather distasteful myself, but every person has a right to be distasteful. If it weren't for the irresponsible, shameful and rascist reaction of many moslim countries (or their governments), I wouldn't want to be associated with these pictures. But they have made it a duty to show them.

To all moslim fanatics: beware! We don't want a conflict. We want peace and cooperation. With a little understanding from both sides this should be possible. If you want a conflict, that's your problem. You may be ready to die for your religion, but we are ready to die to defend our freedom. If you need to know, we will see who dies harder.

[Don Corleone]

Amazingly, and sadly, it would appear the US government has chosen the way of appeasment: US State Department weighs in on cartoon, on side of muslims

I'm frankly shocked by this. At least this little weasel from the State Department, Mr. Kris Cooper, refused to call on American papers not to print the cartoons.

To my muslim friends, I hope you understand to many of us here in the West, this is not about insulting Mohammed or Islam. I know just how infuriating this sort of thing can be. Hell, in the US, an artist got an endowment from the NEA to dip a crucifix into a jar of his own urine, and it was labelled 'performance art'. But silencing the obnoxious by making threats or worse is not the answer.

To Condi, and the rest of the clods at the US state department.... shame on you.

[rory_20_uk]

I read somewhere that "virgins" is a mistranslation and that the correct translation is closer to "grapes". I bet those bombers will be pissed off that after killing a few kids they only get a plate of seedless grapes instead of Virgins.

Or concerning the pictures, perhaps there is logic in the suicide bomber's methods: by killing kids they are ensuring that there are more virgins in heaven!!!

[Crazed Rabbit]

Gah. Europeans are standing up better to radical Islam than the US. Shame on us.

@DC:
The UN starts promoting "respect for all religions and their value systems". April 2005.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatc...ves/006501.php

Important Quote:

Islam On Line (IOL) reported it this way: "The United Nations Commission on Human Rights adopted on Tuesday, April 12, a resolution calling for combating defamation campaigns against Islam and Muslims in the West."

Now:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=20622

The UN was happy to take the case. The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, wrote to the OIC: “I understand your attitude to the images that appeared in the newspaper. I find alarming any behaviors that disregard the beliefs of others. This kind of thing is unacceptable.” She announced that investigations for racism and “Islamophobia” would commence forthwith.

Refrences This:
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005..._0212_9_05.txt

So, in a nutshell, the UN says these depictions are unaceptable and is going to investigate them. What needs to be investigated? Is there not freedom of speech? An important question to ask the UN...

Crazed Rabbit

[Louis VI the Fat]

What a riot!

Next thing you know, the US and their partners in the Axis of Weasels will obstruct French-German UN-resolutions on the protection of the freedom of the west.

*pops open a bottle of Coward-Cola.*




Edit: all in good jest.

[Ser Clegane]

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg....ngs_llp118.jpg

Look ... even Fidel Castro joined the demonstration

I wonder were these pics were taken - the weather doesn't look like Middle East to me. Is there an article going with the pics?

[The_Doctor]

I wonder were these pics were taken - the weather doesn't look like Middle East to me. Is there an article going with the pics?

Ye Olde Britannia.

[Ice]

No apology over Mohammad images, says Denmark

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html

Early Friday, Palestinian militants threw a bomb at a French cultural center in Gaza City, and many Palestinians began boycotting European goods, especially those from Denmark.

"Whoever defames our prophet should be executed," said Ismail Hassan, 37, a tailor who marched through the pouring rain along with hundreds of others in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

[QUOTE]

"Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," protesters in Ramallah chanted.

An imam at the Omari Mosque in Gaza City told 9,000 worshippers that those behind them should have their heads cut off.

And so on..

I know there is already threads on this, but since this was a new Article, I felt the need to start another one. This is getting way out of hand. Over one stupid cartoon drawing in Europe, these guys are flipping out.

[Divinus Arma]

Here we go again. Islamofacism once again. Screw these fanatics. I'll do what I want.

/edit: image removed.

[Don Corleone]

What a riot!

Next thing you know, the US and their partners in the Axis of Weasels will obstruct French-German UN-resolutions on the protection of the freedom of the west.

*pops open a bottle of Coward-Cola.*

Edit: all in good jest.

Hey, we earned it. I can't think of any products named American ____ like French Fries that I could have fun with, but sadly, we deserve it all. Pathetic.

[KukriKhan]

Limits to free speech: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4680040.stm

thousands of people lined up for tickets, somebody yells: "Bomb!", 66 dead in the crush. No bomb.

[Ice]

haha..

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Yes, that is a bit amusing...

[Adrian II]

Gah. Europeans are standing up better to radical Islam than the US. Shame on us.

Shame on whom? All that happened is that some of you are made to swallow your own Freedom Fries and your Axis of Weasels. That is what happens if you believe that certain nations, territories or languages embody principles and others do not. But we are not going to call a Rabbit a weasel just because he lives in the Yellow States of America.

Some French members might want to siggy this though:

"Anti-Muslim images are as unacceptable as anti-Semitic images, as anti-Christian images or any other religious belief," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters. The United States, which before the September 11 attacks was criticized for insensitivity to the Islamic culture, has become more attuned to Muslim sensibilities.

[Adrian II]

Limits to free speech: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4680040.stm

thousands of people lined up for tickets, somebody yells: "Bomb!", 66 dead in the crush. No bomb.

What is the purpose of this comparison, Kukrikhan? Are you comparing the Danish cartoons to shouting 'bomb' during a tacky, famously chaotic game show in the Philippines? BTW what if there had been a bomb? Does free speech come with a disclaimer that says 'Do not use in an emergency'?

[KafirChobee]

Religion is religion. If a Muslim cartoon depicted Jesus screwing a donkey - would christians be upset?

It is a game ... and it is being played by the powerful against those that actually believe in a God (regardless of name). It is the old: play the good against the good and they may not understand the evil spreading it.

Truth is, the teachings of Mohamad areas worthy as those of Jesus - both were supressive of women - but, said honor them (because we alls gots mothers).

To villafial (sp) one persons aspect of a "political cartoon" (while those employing it knowingly realise they are violating a religious precept) is in itself "bullshit".

To create a premise that we must all be equal in religion is of course the hope of Christians - especially since 60-70% is Moslim. Still, hope spring eternal and the big lie always wins (or so some Christians hope, rather than face the reality that ... GOD is God, regardless of what one wants to call him.

Someone once said the best way to divert the attention of "the people" from the realities of the "STATE" was to use religion. Religion can always be a proving factor for the state .... if 20% believe it.

Personally? I find it offensive that anyone would degrade religion. Or, justify the actions against one.

Call me open minded >>>> or liberal ..... or open toother perceptions of GOD (call the prick Zeus, but acknowledge we created him). Period. But, take in mind the offensive nature of the toons depicting Mohamad and those printing them (knowing they would offend half the world) and then one can see the truth of the offense. That it was initiated by the Dutch (whom, I always felt a bit a kin because of their liberalism - they have legalized prostitutions, got to love that?) is almost offensive, Especially since their own "terrorist ATTACKS". It almost seems that it is OK for a nations press to close its' mind to reality - if its government has.

Doesn't it?

Proves a point though. That in the supposed democratic societies - the truely wealthy hold the balance of what democracy is. They define it. They have learned to live with it and now control; it.

[KukriKhan]

What is the purpose of this comparison, Kukrikhan? Are you comparing the Danish cartoons to shouting 'bomb' during a tacky, famously chaotic game show in the Philippines? BTW what if there had been a bomb? Does free speech come with a disclaimer that says 'Do not use in an emergency'?

Guy yells "BOMB!" falsely in a place used to bombings. People die. Bad thing, yes?

Paper prints cartoon saying "Mohammed is a bomber!" (is that not the message of the image?). Flags burn. Fish is not bought. Worldwide media climbs on-board re-distributing the image, furthering the stampede. Bad thing?

Who's at fault? The 'free' speaker, or the stampeders? Or someone else?

[Crazed Rabbit]

All that happened is that some of you are made to swallow your own Freedom Fries

You act as though that's a bad thing.

Shame on whom?

Us. I hold no illusions about the practical nature of principles, but I thought - not illogically, considering prior actions of the US and 'Old Europe' towards certain threats - that the US would have been able to stand level with Europeans to support the fundamental principle of free speech. Alas, I am dissappointed.

Crazed Rabbit

[Divinus Arma]

Here we go again. Islamofacism once again. Screw these fanatics. I'll do what I want.

/edit: image removed.

I was about to do this. But for the record, I don't get it. People put all kinds of insulting jokes on this forum about one anothers politics and religions.

This seems like bowing to fanaticism to me. Everyday, someone hear comments on "the religion of peace", or the crusading christians, etc. How is a personal perspective communicated through an image any different from the speech itself?


But this is just a game site, not a hardcore politics site. If I want the good stuff, I should expect to go elsewhere. Knowing the tender and gentle nature of the Org, I can't complain too much.

[Adrian II]

Guy yells "BOMB!" falsely in a place used to bombings. People die. Bad thing, yes?

Who says a guy yelled 'bomb'? And who says he did it intentionally to cause a panic? All freedom comes with responsibility. And by the way:

As well as rumours of a bomb, other witnesses said the crush began when guards refused to open the gates to the stadium

Sounds to me like the organisation blames the incident on 'bomb rumours' instead of their own incompetence. Now that is an abuse of free speech.

Paper prints cartoon saying "Mohammed is a bomber!" (is that not the message of the image?).

The message seems to be that Mohammed is a bomber in the eyes of some of his followers. And he is. Just this week the killer of Van Gogh had his day in court, and all he did was talk about rivers of blood and beheadings and revenge in the name of the Prophet. The guy is a perfect caricature himself.

Who's at fault? The 'free' speaker, or the stampeders?

The stampeders are idiots who can not even burn the right flags. In other posts I wrote that it is remarkable how the Arab elites started this row, not the Arab 'street' as they call it. If people don't learn to read and write and think for themselves, they will be manipulated by clerics and political leaders.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Religion is religion. If a Muslim cartoon depicted Jesus screwing a donkey - would christians be upset?

Oh please what a ludicrous statement. Would they threaten to kill people over it? Remeber the picture of the Virgin Mary covered in cow dung or the upside down crucifix in a jar of urine that was displyed as art in museums around this country? Were christains upset? You bet they were. Did it come any where near the reaction the Muslims are having. Heck South Park even has Jesus as a character in the show many times and Moses has appeared as well.

[Duke of Gloucester]

Truth is, the teachings of Mohamad areas worthy as those of Jesus - both were supressive of women - but, said honor them (because we alls gots mothers).

Let's leave aside the question of whether Christians are oppressive of women, you will not find any examples of Jesus's teaching that are oppressive of women. If you read the gospels, you will, in fact, find the reverse. Probably the same is true of Mohamad.

Where Christians do oppress women, it is because the subvert rather than follow Christ's teaching.

[KukriKhan]

Note: we have a merged topic, so posts may seem out of sequence.

Who says a guy yelled 'bomb'? And who says he did it intentionally to cause a panic? All freedom comes with responsibility. And by the way:Sounds to me like the organisation blames the incident on 'bomb rumours' instead of their own incompetence. Now that is an abuse of free speech. The message seems to be that Mohammed is a bomber in the eyes of some of his followers. And he is. Just this week the killer of Van Gogh had his day in court, and all he did was talk about rivers of blood and beheadings and revenge in the name of the Prophet. The guy is a perfect caricature himself.The stampeders are idiots who can not even burn the right flags. In other posts I wrote that it is remarkable how the Arab elites started this row, not the Arab 'street' as they call it. If people don't learn to read and write and think for themselves, they will be manipulated by clerics and political leaders.

Heh. Looks like a Redleg refutation. (No offense to you or Redleg).

To be honest, I heard the initial report on BBC-World radio, where the breathless Manila station chief said: "Someone yelled 'BOMB!', and people rushed away!...". I went to BBC.co.uk and checked: sure enough, a headline. Re-checking just now, I see the byline with the reporter's name, has been dropped, and many details have been added, including an upped death-count. So, I'll put my assertion of someone yelling down to reliance on preliminary on-the-scene, non-pastuerized, non-gate-closing-details reports.

So, back 4 hours ago, I thought: "This will put a different spin on the cartoon wars thread." And I posted.

I don't dispute that we've seen silly people acting..well, silly.

My question is: Is the alarmism by both the European press and Muslim elite warranted? Calculated? Racist? Harmless? Necessary?

Is someone, or several someones gonna die over this? Is it worth it?

[Divinus Arma]

WITH PERMISSION OF KUKRIKHAN:

For those of you who have not seen the image that is causing all this fuss, here it is:

***WARNING: If you are Muslim, you may violate your religious requirements by viewing this image.*****

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You sure thats not Bin Laden?

[Devastatin Dave]

Religion is religion. If a Muslim cartoon depicted Jesus screwing a donkey - would christians be upset?

Yup I remember that. When stuff like that happens my church gets together, break out the weapons cache we have stored under the First Baptist Church and go on a grand killing spree, burning cars, rioting, and all sorts of fun "outrage" activities. Then to top it off, we capture a few artists and have a good old fashion head chopping party while screaming, "Praise Jesus!!!" over and over again drowning out the last girgling noises of our infidel victim as they choke on their own blood until that last little bit of spinal columb snapes under the sharp blade of the righteous. Oh wait, that didn't happen.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Considering how the UN was (perhaps still is) considering illegalizing criticism of Islam, and how Muslims have tried to force and apology and silence criticism, I think it was important for the papers to show that they aren't afraid to print these. After all, if people have the nominal right to free speech, but are scared to speak out on certain issues, that isn't really free speech.

And do you think the UN is more or less likely to illegalize the criticism of Islam after this incident?


It should be clear that no one was scared to speak out on this issue.



I can't think of anything that Westerners would find as offensive as printed pictures of mohammed. We're desensitized to a lot. Maybe showing gay porn during the superbowl? That would offend a lot of people, and how is that not free speech?

[Byzantine Prince]

Yeah well, drunkks don't care. f@@@ reeessssssiollikdion.