Religious intolerance or freedom of speech.

[Crazed Rabbit]

And do you think the UN is more or less likely to illegalize the criticism of Islam after this incident?

More likely too. Muslims will point to it as evidence of the 'need' for such a restriction on free speech, and the UN, eager to appease, will try to oblige.

It should be clear that no one was scared to speak out on this issue.

The editor of the French paper that printed these was fired, and employees at the Danish paper had, I believe, a bomb threat called in. I think that there are some who have held back because of the nature of the Muslim reaction. The protesters are certainly trying to intimidate people.

I can't think of anything that Westerners would find as offensive as printed pictures of mohammed. We're desensitized to a lot. Maybe showing gay porn during the superbowl? That would offend a lot of people, and how is that not free speech?

That's obscenity, not free speech. It serves no purpose save to display a disgusting spectacle. These cartoons are critiquing a religion, actual political speech.

Crazed Rabbit

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The editor of the French paper that printed these was fired, and employees at the Danish paper had, I believe, a bomb threat called in. I think that there are some who have held back because of the nature of the Muslim reaction. The protesters are certainly trying to intimidate people.

The artists are afraid for their lives and under police protection.

[Adrian II]

Heh. Looks like a Redleg refutation. (No offense to you or Redleg).

No offense taken. But I am still not sure we are on the same wavelength.

Bomb scares are mostly the result of bomb threats, particularly if such threats have come true recently as they have in the Philippines. If anyone is to blame for the deadly rush in front of that stadium, it is the bloody terrorists who caused the bomb scare in the Philippines the first place. That is what terrorism does, it is random violence intended to scare and cause chaos. That is its very nature. The same thing happened in Iraq not too long ago: a deadly stampede caused by a bomb scare caused by concrete threats against pilgrims. That is not a consequence of free speech, not even of its abuse. It is the very opposite of free speech.

And about the cartoon: if someone claims that Mohammed wants him to blow things up, someone else has every right to produce a cartoon of said Mohammed with a bomb in his turban. The demonstrators should be protesting against their terrorist brethren, not against the very apt and timely cartoon.

The sad thing is they are put up to it by government agitators and clerics who stand to lose everything if their population would ever exercise their right to free speech, a free flow of information, legal and political equality, etcetera. That is the issue we have to face now.

I am rather happy with the way the Danish and other European governments tackle this. We have a saying in The Neds that in delicate situations 'someone has to use their brains'. The Danes for instance are not demonstrating, shutting down embassies, calling for the beheading of such and such. Their government remains firm but moderate and open to dialogue. Like Mandelson on behalf of the EU, Rasmussen has made it clear that they will not give in on the one hand and that they will not condone the cartoons on the other hand -- which is quite right because governments are not in the business of promoting cartoons and anyone here who thinks they should needs their head examined.

If the anti-Danish boycots and agitation persist, the EU will have to reciprocate with trade sanctions where it hurts some Arab leaders and second echelon types most. Pascal Lamy, Mandelson's predecessor, has shown that the EU can be very good at this after the WTO condemned Bush punitive steal tariffs. Lamy threatened a package of 200 major and minor EU trade sanctions against the U.S. that would hurt Bush re-election most (Florida oranges, for instance) after which the steal tariffs were scuttled inside of two weeks. I have no doubt that if needed, Mandelson's staff will come up with a suitable package for Mssrs Assad or Bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud. They buy most of their luxuries such as yachts, cars, jewellery and fancy consumer electronics in Europe. No more toys for the boys would be my advice.

[AntiochusIII]

Hey, what can I say? I expected less from the European politicians, considering their reputation for "cowardice." And they surprised me with a firm position. Hopefully this will last.

The population of Europe is, gladly, defiant to this threat to freedom of speech. Kudos to them and buy Danish cookies. I myself love Danish cookies long before they start printing Muhammed-ridiculing cartoons.

What surprises me greatly, though, is the American reaction. Wimps? WTF!!!

By the gods, it had not been a week since the State of the Union and our beloved Presiden...cy (since I'm not sure if the President does actually have a hand in formulating the policy of siding with the oversensitive party) has already betrayed his/its principles.

And I thought I should expect this kind of comforming behavior from the Dems, according to the usual Republican boasts!

I'm sorry, but you could say very bad things about my mother and I still won't have a right to start injuring you and kidnapping your family. What I can do is sue and burn a flag or two. I cannot infringe upon your liberty. Therefore, while it is easy to see the tasteless cartoons angering Muslims, the reactions of some--I dearly hope not most--of their community brought forth my utmost contempt and frustration.

The day they start banning anti-religious freedom of expression in this country, that's the day I'll start writing Rushdie's sequels.

[kataphraktoi]

pressing buttons have never been this easier. Kinda like tickle me elmo saying "ha ha ha ha ha apologise now!"

[TinCow]

I'm usually very quick to say that Islam is a good religion and that it's simply the acts of a few that are spoiling it for the rest. However, this one has really started to get to me. I have no problems with them being pissed and rioting over the cartoon. It's their right if they are offended and I can't criticize them for that. What this has had me asking though is, why aren't they this upset about the killings of innocents in the Mideast? Where are the riots for the beheadings? Where are the images of bin Laden being burned for his distortion of Islam? They seem to be picking their outrages in a rather questionable manner.

[Meneldil]

Looks like the French Muslims kept a pragmatic point of view on the issue. Many people condamned the pics as being unrespectful, but no manifestations with slogans such as 'France is the cancer and Islam the answer', no people crying and asking for the heads of the people who drawn the pics.
They'll apparently sue France Soir (the newspaper that released the pics) for provocation. While I hope they'll lose the trial, I think they kinda shown they aren't the brainwashed morons we can see everyday on TV, and earned my respect, for what it's worth.

More likely too. Muslims will point to it as evidence of the 'need' for such a restriction on free speech, and the UN, eager to appease, will try to oblige.

Any support for that claim, or is it some random thoughts from someone who hates the UN ?

[Ser Clegane]

Danish embassy torched in Syria

This is getting more and more out of hands...

[Dâriûsh]

This is utterly insane!

[The_Doctor]

This is how WW3 is going to start.

If the Syrians kill some of the Danish people in the embassy, the Danish government will have to respond. But how will they respond?

[Duke Malcolm]

Europe should stand its ground... Be defiant and such... Demand the arrest of the fire-raisers. If Syria fail to comply, press them further. If the refuse outright, well...

[rory_20_uk]

Erm, the Danish Armed forces aren't going to shatter the world as we know it...
Getting the Eu to do more than a harsh letter would be tough
NATO are supposed to be a defensive European force
The UN likes to debate things for many years, preferably until the chrisis has passed.

[Ser Clegane]

I wonder if this mob is aware of how much disrespect they are showing to Mohammed by their actions and by showing how close to the truth the original cartoons apparently are...

[master of the puppets]

true.

does anyone in the country have an unaltered Quran? i just want to know if any of these people have ever read the words of muhamed along the lines of how you should not kill, respect your brothers, suicide is bad, women are your equals and should be respected, and jihad does not encompass the blowing up of oneself. or mabey they only know the Quran that has been warped by the extremests. i'm not supporting the person who wrote the cartoon, he was just a shallow idiot who crossed the line.

[Lazul]

Nice going you idiot mob! They torched the Danish embassy... but the thing is that the Swedish one is the same building. Morons.

This is just going to get worse I think, the right-wing nutcases all over scandinavia is protesting and getting arrested. *Mega Yawn* As I said before, humans are pathetic.

[kataphraktoi]

The UN likes to debate things for many years, preferably until the chrisis has passed.

UN talk till the cows die before they come home. The UN are toothless. Idealism is nice but not practical without some enforcement. Law and order comes from the ability to enforce..well LAW and ORDER.

Someone raised an interesting point at another website.

\WHy aren't Muslims coming out and protesting against Islam percieved as "extremist". I'm not going to say that moderate Islam is the true Islam or that extremism is true Islam, for all I know it could be either. But moderate Muslims are so quiet, so silent on this matter.

It troubles me that they don't speak out on behalf of persecuted minorities in their homelands. Anyone care about the Assyrian Holocaust in Iraq? Its not a matter of religion, the Assyrian are an ethnic group as well as a religious group. Or how about the Copts? WHo speaks on their behalf? The last time they dared to protest on a large scale was in the 9th century when the Abbasids crushed a Coptic rebellion after igniting it with discriminatory high taxes and attempted Arabisation. What about the Bahais? The only safe place for them is...ISRAEL - the most hated nation on Earth after the US where they have a magnificent edifice there. If it was in Iran, Syria or Egypt, watch that prominent building burn to the ground. What about the Parsees (Zoroastarians) who worship underground in fear? What about the Mandeans, the Sabeans, the Yazidis, the Chaldean Nestorians (who are the last few speakers of Aramaic, the language of the Arameans, Babylonians, etc, etc). WHo speaks out for those Muslims who choose to embrace another religion like Hinduism or Buddhism, how is it that moderate Muslims don't defend these "apostates" on the principle of free-will.

Do I sound peeved, I sure do.

I have Muslims who tell me Islam is a religion of peace. Then why don't they speak for those who can't defend themselves? Or does it only apply to Muslims who can't defend themselves?

However, I am sure that Muslims on the .org are disgusted by treatment of minority groups by "so-called" Muslims. And I am sure they not fanatically inclined but desire a peaceful co-existence. If they had the chance and power, they too would protest against the apathy of silence in which extremist Islam has more attention than the moderate Islam.

[kataphraktoi]

I love Europeans, they are so...peace loving

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I love Europeans, they are so...peace loving

Dont say we didnt warn ya. At least they cant blame this one on the US. Nice to see then coming to their senses. Tolerance is one thing but this is insane.

[Adrian II]

Nice going you idiot mob! They torched the Danish embassy... but the thing is that the Swedish one is the same building. Morons.

No, this is just the Syrian government's bid to claim leadership of the movement and gain some prestige among Muslims after the late Lebanese debacle. In Syria nothing happens without overt or silent approval of the regime, and since this regime is not averse to killing the occasional neighbouring prime minister it can certainly be credited with organising what happened today. Observe:

BBC News 24 quoted Jorgen Nielsen, the representative of Danish Institute in Damascus, as saying the building was empty at the time because the protest was expected. The embassy was closed on Saturday. "There were policemen there but it seems to have been a symbolic presence,'' he said.

Symbolic police protection at a time of heightened tension and increased threats...

[Reenk Roink]

I'm going to break my self-applied abstinence and bust out a special condom to enter the backroom once more so I can give my opinion which differs from the usual "OMG Th3y R 5uCh cR42y & Vi0L3nT" I'm seeing here...

I think most people here are thinking the situation is too bad. I guess I can blame the media for constantly showing the same damn images of the Gaza riots, while ignoring the largely peaceful (though massive and outraged) elsewhere and everywhere throughout the Islamic world.

Now, we all know that there have been many more incidents of very insulting things against the Quran and Mohammed, but since this one has received a helluva coverage, of course the fires are being spread.

I have heard of no killings due to this...others apparently have, or like in the "Hamas" thread, some are just hoping to inflame the situation...

The things said about the cars turned over and burned...wasn't that a non-religious but rather racially motivated incident in France last year...?

What outdoes the rather disproportionatly inflated scenes of flag burnin', hate sign totin', gun shootin', (and BTW, don't you tell me you haven't heard of the "Allah must die" or "kill them all, let God sort them out" or "keep flushing the Quran" signs) is the massive peaceful boycotts against an action which is considered worse then death for most muslims and a "declaration of war" against the religion of Islam (as many see it). Those boycotts are damned effective, and it is the best way to protest an action, and they have been almost 100% successful... Good for them, I'll passively join in since my sister must be offended by this (I never buy Euro products anyway...I buy Canadian and Japanese).

Here's some more on the protests, I took the liberty of NOT choosing Al-Jazeera as some may not hold it as "fair and balanced" according to their FOX standards:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060203...f_060203182048

"If Europe stands behind those (offenders), we all will unite against them," said Qaradawi, who is considered a pan-Islamic preacher. "We say to the Europeans: We can live without you but you cannot live without us ... We can buy our goods from China, Taiwan, Malaysia and the rest of Asia," he added, in reference to the boycott campaign.

He urged worshippers to boycott the goods of the countries of newspapers which published the cartoons claiming that "every penny or dinar paid would go to these newspapers and be transformed into words or drawings mocking your religion and the Prophet."

Qardawi urged Muslim governments to demand a new UN resolution "banning insults against the prophets," pointing out that "a similar resolution protecting Jews and Judaism has been issued before."

"If the Danes say they can ridicule Jesus and his mother, can they ridicule Jews? ... No one has the right to question the number of the victims of the Holocaust, not even in a doctorate thesis," he said.

But he called upon angry Muslims not to attack their "Christian compatriots", charging that those behind the publishing of the cartoons were "neither Christians, nor believers."

Here's another one from a senior Kuwaiti iman:

"It is a (religious) duty for every Muslim to boycott countries that defame the Prophet, without waiting for a decision from the rulers," said one of Kuwait's imams, or prayer leaders.

Here's a guy who was more sad than mad:

A senior Saudi cleric delivering a sermon at the Grand Mosque in Mecca, home of the holiest sites in Islam, broke down in tears for nearly five minutes while condemning the cartoons.

I hope these boycotts continue, and I hope they set a precedent for the Arab world, that there are better ways to unite and speak out than letting a small group of wannabe mujahadeen run around yapping. None of these clerics said anything along the lines of violence, which some would be led to believe, and I know that Qaradawi is a bigshot when it comes to Islamic clerics. And on the Shite side:

Iraq's top Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, condemned the cartoon depictions in a posting on his website Jan. 31.

"We strongly denounce and condemn this horrific action," al-Sistani said.

However, the cleric did not encourage any protests and he even placed some responsibility on militant Muslims for the negative way that Islam is depicted, AP reported.

He said some segments of the Muslim community were "misguided and oppressive" and that their actions "projected a distorted and dark image of the faith of justice, love and brotherhood."

This entire situation reminds of of the race riots here in the 60's. A few people decided to cause mayhem and the media tied them in with the largely peaceful boycotts of the movement...

Oh and about the UN thing: I'm quite sure anti Jewish statements are protected and they should be, as much of this recent Islamaphobia, reminisces of early 20th century anti-Semitism.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll be flamed by some here...but I probably won't read those utterly worthless remarks cause I'm off to the Frontroom .

EDIT: Oh and one last thing that I forgot to address...there have been many condemnations against beheadings/kidnappings that go on in Iraq. Just google it and see how many Muslim groups have called for Jill Carol's release...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Im sorry but making a rule that no one can make an image of the prophet and expecting everyone in the rest of the world to abide by it is ridiclous. Doing violence over it is insane. There is no excuse. Talk about pushing your morals on others.

[InsaneApache]

A good article from Matthew Paris in the Times today.

Here

The approach is tempting. It avoids hurt. But it overlooks, in the evolution of belief, the key role played by mockery. Many faiths and ideologies achieve and maintain their predominance partly through fear. They, of course, would call it “respect”. But whatever you call it, it intimidates. The reverence, the awe — even the dread — that their gods, their KGB or their priesthoods demand and inspire among the laity are vital to the authority they wield.

But let us not duck what that “I do not believe” really means. It means I do not believe that there is one God, Allah, or that Muhammad is His Prophet. It means I do not believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, or that no man cometh to the Father except by Him. I do not believe that the Jews are God’s Chosen People, or subject to any duties different from the rest of us. It means I do not believe any living creature will be reincarnated in another life.

The man has hit the nail on the head.

[Adrian II]

I hope these boycotts continue, and I hope they set a precedent for the Arab world, that there are better ways to unite and speak out than letting a small group of wannabe mujahadeen run around yapping.

Well, boycotting countries because they respect free speech is certainly an improvement over bombing or beheading their citizens. In a linear sense, I guess exchanging the dumbest idea for the second-dumbest qualifies as progress.

[Proletariat]

[rory_20_uk]

I'm with Gwain. Peaceful protests IMO are going to far. We are not far from a time when countries declared that people should be killed for what they wrote.

Won't read the replies??? Oh, OK. Again doesn't really add weight to what you write does it: a quick post followed by a holier-than-thou attitude dare anyone disagree with the itinerant prophet who has "graced" us

I hate to bring it to your attention but the Western World has not been shook to its knees by the protests, passive or otherwise. If you'd further passively protest by not bothering to write it'd be even better...

The oh so hated Europe has even managed to add a paragraph wishing the Middle East be made a nuclear weapon free zone - which is viewed by many as a slap against Israel.

[Reenk Roink]

Your free speech, their blasphemy...they are perfectly justified, if an employee at a store or restaurant said something rude to me in even the slightest way, I wouldn't go back because I "respect their right to free speech".

AND

Yep, I guess we'll leave the bombing of citizens to the allied coalition in Iraq...

AND

11000 people losing jobs seems like a big hit...

And please, don't criticize my attitude, it's just matching everyone elses on this forum...besides, I don't mind disagreeing, I mind personal flaming which I have recieved when dealing with such a topic in the past...and I clearly stated that...

[rory_20_uk]

Well, the (Muslim) Iraqis had bean doing it for a couple of decades, we thought we'd help... Oh and didn't Iran and Iraq loose a few as well in that war that lasted about a decade? I know it was our fault for not stopping them (when we'd have again become accused of unfairly getting involved in other's affairs)...

Muslims killing muslims? Must be me, as after all deaths throughout the Islamic world are directly or indirectly due to Europe / USA

[InsaneApache]

Your free speech, their blasphemy...they are perfectly justified, if an employee at a store or restaurant said something rude to me in even the slightest way, I wouldn't go back because I "respect their right to free speech"....

No they are not. They are not justified in foisting their mind-set and belief on the World. They are the ones who are wrong. Wrong in thought. Wrong in deed.

[Reenk Roink]

Well, the (Muslim) Iraqis had bean doing it for a couple of decades, we thought we'd help... Oh and didn't Iran and Iraq loose a few as well in that war that lasted about a decade? I know it was our fault for not stopping them (when we'd have again become accused of unfairly getting involved in other's affairs)...

Muslims killing muslims? Must be me, as after all deaths throughout the Islamic world are directly or indirectly due to Europe / USA

Yep, but all that is history, or would you like me to bring up Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Besides, I've already stated that it's the Arabs own fault in the Hamas thread and that muslims do kill other muslims in Iraq, go look it up...but that masks the non-muslims killing muslims right?

No they are not. They are not justified in foisting their mind-set and belief on the World. They are the ones who are wrong. Wrong in thought. Wrong in deed.

Gah, stop spreading freedom and free speech...

[Duke Malcolm]

[QUOTE=Reenk Roink]Your free speech, their blasphemy...they are perfectly justified[QUOTE]

You notice wehn Jesus was defiled in the Jerry Springer Opera, Christians managed to keep themselves to a little protest across the road denouncing blasphemy. The protest in London demanded the deaths of the Danish and Europeans. The latter is in breach of laws against Incitement to Racial Hatred; why the constabulary failed to arrest the bearers of the placards I do not know...

Yep, I guess we'll leave the bombing of citizens to the allied coalition in Iraq...

You're going to stop? Well done.

11000 people losing jobs seems like a big hit...

I doubt it'll get that far.